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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Damien Hardwick [Merged]
- Thread starter Rosy
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I do think a call on Dimma should not be made until after round 10 . Tigers in that period play 7 at The G , 1 at Etihad & 2 at Domain. Pass mark 5 wins if not goodnight Dimma. Do Tigers have an assistant at Tigerland who has done a apprenticeship there. One who can take over the reins. I prefer in housing compared to someone coming in from the cold. I have had enough of them.
I can handle anything Carter. What you don't seem to be able to handle is when you are called out on clearly bonehead statements.Carter said:
I never said that recruiters and coaches always agree, that is you manipulaing the discussion away from your stupid statement . I was calling you out on the statement that you made that clearly implied that the club deliberately recruits players that are not what the coach wants. I don't know why you would even try and defend it because if it's true then there is no way that Dimma would still be Coach.
Sintiger said:
Sure you're handling this, Sin? Wouldn't want you to blow a gasket or anything.
I stand by my statement that Dimma doesn't have much use for the likes of Short, Butler, Lennon, McBean.
It's just the way he likes to set up.
And now over to you for more rage ;D
yandb said:
Could only reply now, sorry.
Agree with your last point and have said as much in earlier post, but Dimma must have been really afraid of the worst-case scenario happening, whereby we ended up playing Crows away in EF. TBF no-one could be sure Cats would towel them up at the cattery last round, I suppose, and after our last performance at Crowland!!
However, your idea about playing a six-man FL. This has almost gone by the wayside, even in upper levels of junior footy. No coach wants to leak goals, cop a thrashing due to how fast modern 'running machine' players, with long or precise kicking skills, can move the ball. We all might wish it wasn't so, but this has been fact for many years now. Occasionally a coach will send a 6th player forward as a tactical move, to catch the opp by surprise, to capitalise on a dominating offense or to try and sneak a quick goal or two.
Overall, mostly the risk of a man-on-man FL is too great in today's game, so the opposing coach will usually counteract it with 7 defenders.
The plus-1 is a vital method of avoiding blow-outs and allowing defenders to outnumber the forwards in order to win contests and run the ball out, usually through a classy disposal player. Like Houli for us and now maybe Yarran back there too.
So that's why only the best players can succeed as forwards, and why it's the hardest thing to achieve in a game - score goals. Because the FL is almost always outnumbered and must overcome the odds. However, winning it from the centre bounces often catches any defence unprepared, plus best midfielders get forward fast to even up the numbers somewhat and assist forwards or score themselves. Precise kicking can also defeat this defence - see Hawthorn, the best at it.
leon said:
I reckon we'll see a four or five man forward line this season. We just don't have the clearance chops to do otherwise.
IF you are a strong clearance team I think you can flirt with the idea of six forwards.
The real issue is selection. If as we all expect the forward line will again be limited, you want nothing but silk down there to win 50/50s and convert limited opportunities.
Dimma tried to play Morris even when we were losing inside 50 differentials. That doesn't make sense. He would rather trap the ball and hold it than score quick goals.
Did you mean 'chops'? Made me hungry! Re six forwards:Carter said:
I think all coaches rotate players around to find or capitalise on an advantage according to the state of the game. So, yes, so if you're dominating clearances, and therefore probably on the scoreboard, why not try it? But if the opp starts taking advantage of an even FL to get a run-on, watch them switch a plus-1 back pronto. I doubt Maric can dominate many opp rucks any more for this to happen much for us.
But at least we have looked to recruit the missing silk with all the young SFs taken, Rioli being the latest.
Yes, the infamous Morris experiment; was based on Dimma's belief we had to have a DSF who would cause turnovers or lock the ball in, causing stoppages. Because then the numbers even up a lot and there's congestion, more scoring options. We were good at these situations statistically in prior seasons.
The problem is you must have a player who is dangerous on the offense plus highly skillled, a la Cyril. Dimma did lose Jake King unexpectedly early, who while no Cyril, was far better at this two-way role than poor Morris who is an honest defender only.
Let's see if our young silk can step up this year, but still so young. Dimma also lacked faith in Lloyd, who should have been given this position throughout 2015.
PS - apologies, I had gone back and added to my previous post.
Hardwick simply has to come up with a winning game plan that perfectly utilises the talent at his disposal, which is no tall order mind you.
If the Tigers are start being serious contenders then Hardwick and the players need to ratchet up the standards and start playing a new level of football.
It's time to start expanding some of the coaching and team horizons, utilising the past six years of building foundations and now hopefully stepping stones to the top four.
It's a BIG ask and I will watching the unfolding of the first half of the forthcoming season with anticipation as well as bated breath.
If the Tigers are start being serious contenders then Hardwick and the players need to ratchet up the standards and start playing a new level of football.
It's time to start expanding some of the coaching and team horizons, utilising the past six years of building foundations and now hopefully stepping stones to the top four.
It's a BIG ask and I will watching the unfolding of the first half of the forthcoming season with anticipation as well as bated breath.
on the issue of the plus 1, ours if often near the contest but not necessarily having an impact. Opponents know to man up on Chaplin as he sometimes struggles with an opponent. It is very sad that Hansen was one of North's best in the EF. In my opinion, our current style flatters us. The amount we lose by if often no indication as to how much we were not in the contest. We need to play forwards in the forward line, ie Jack 
. Unless Griffiths learns how to kick for goal he is a liability up there. As I keep saying (and I'm starting to bore my friends and patients), we need to play to win, not play to not lose!
. Unless Griffiths learns how to kick for goal he is a liability up there. As I keep saying (and I'm starting to bore my friends and patients), we need to play to win, not play to not lose!
I think it is clear to all (and Dimma included) that we need 1-2 more goals a game. The last 11 games last year we averaged 91 points. It is a fact that 14 of the last 15 premiers averaged more than 100 points per game. The small forward is the key. We have been struggling with that position and Hardwick has been working around it trying another tall, Morris etc to try to get those additional points. This year we might just find one. Butler, Short, Rioli, or Lloyd might step his consistency up. Lets hope so.joegarra said:on the issue of the plus 1, ours if often near the contest but not necessarily having an impact. Opponents know to man up on Chaplin as he sometimes struggles with an opponent. It is very sad that Hansen was one of North's best in the EF. In my opinion, our current style flatters us. The amount we lose by if often no indication as to how much we were not in the contest. We need to play forwards in the forward line, ie Jack
Carter said:
bulldust. The Morris experiment turned out to be a failure, but it went for 8 rounds, (too long), but not 3 years. Dunno how many times Newman and Morris played together in the fwd line, wouldn't have been many games, a handful max.
If you want to make an argument, go ahead. But using wild exaggerations and extreme and tenuous examples just undermines your argument. And the extreme smug tone on top of that is just annoying. I'd actually be interested in what has actually been the components, characteristics of our fwd line over the last 3 years.
tigersnake said:
Why is it so hard for people to accept that Newman and Morris have been favoured in the forward line over Lloyd and Lennon?
Have no idea how many times they've played together, was merely positing Dimma's preferred forwards since late 2013.
You can think that is "bulldust" if you like, and that I'm being "smug".
Makes no difference to me.
Agree with you and Joe. Want Lloyd to really get a fair run of games because he is the most developed, mature option at present who showed really positive signs from limited opportunities in '15. However, I mean by this not getting summarily dropped for a quiet game. The SF role is a realy tough one, pretty hit or miss, depends on opportunities, opposition quality, luck and having kicking boots on. If Clarkson dropped Rioli for every low possession game, it's arguable he'd never have reached dizzy heights currently.The Mole said:
But plenty more goals possible through improvement from TV, Griff, Sheds, Lambert and mids plus whoever else can step up.
Today's AGE article with CD info confirms FL weakness and more:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-the-richmond-six-who-could-hold-the-tigers-back-20160201-gmipxx.html
Should say already posted on Journos board thread and there in full.
Well fair bit of truth on TS's side: Morris experiment was those 8 rds of 2015, but Dimma then tried Newman at times too when former had failed or got injured. Maybe occasionally together. And it does show Dimma's lack of imagination with SFs too, but his defence would be:Carter said:
- Lloyd & Lennon too green/inexperienced at AFL level as yet
- Jake King example proved a backman could succeed as one
- Furthermore, a hardened, experienced footballer with good skills e.g kicking in N's case, plus a willing and hardened chaser/tackler, hence a small defender, filled the need.
My final point is that it shows, overall, the gaping hole in Dimma's gameplan that he relied on these types to fill this crucial role and there was no forward planning to recruit specialists until, belatedly, in the 2014 draft (and these were too young for '15 season).
BTW - Lennon is a different type - lacks the speed to be a hunting true SF. Besides not small (about 6' 2" in the old)!
Carter said:
Why bother having a discussion then? Its one thing to say 'Dimma is too conservative, hasn't given Lloyd and Lennon enough games, given Newman and Morris too many'
Its another thing to say or imply he's played Newman and Morris in the fwd line for the last 3 years, doesn't like players who kick goals (dunno if you said that).
You think your argument is self-evident, it isn't. Has Dimma favoured CN and SM over BL and SL? If so, by how much? A lot, or a little? And if you are right, why? Was BL ready? Is SL good enough? And even though the SM experiment was broadly a failure, we had some good wins where his fwd pressure did have an impact, so I for one could see where he was going with it, even if it failed.
You didn't actually respond to the points I made in my post. I'd actually like to see some meat on the bones of your argument, it would be genuinely interesting to me. Games played in the fwd line by small and med fwds over the last 3 years.
Also you ignore counter arguments, Lennon was only running one way, Morris experiment failed and he moved on, and the biggie, every single person and their dogs know we lack a classy med-small fwd. Lennon might be it, he's being brought in, Rioli might be it, Lloyd for me probably won't be it, but I like having him on the list for depth in that area
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