Indigenous History Debate | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Indigenous History Debate

LeeToRainesToRoach

Tiger Legend
Jun 4, 2006
29,401
7,316
Melbourne
Nope. Different context and I know how important context is to you.
"The speech dismissed class warfare in Australia and called out to the 'forgotten' Australians, the middle class, the strivers, the planners, and the ambitious ones. All too often the ones ignored by governments."

https://www.timnicholls.com.au/forgotten_people

Sounds awfully similar to "quiet Australians" to me.
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
12,166
1,581
Didn’t this thread get started by being split off the original thread because it got off track from the original topic?
yes, i was tricked into posting in this thread when I was doign so well resisting the urge responding to those requiring some moral counterbalance..
 

Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
12,994
3,333
Camberwell
"The speech dismissed class warfare in Australia and called out to the 'forgotten' Australians, the middle class, the strivers, the planners, and the ambitious ones. All too often the ones ignored by governments."

https://www.timnicholls.com.au/forgotten_people

Sounds awfully similar to "quiet Australians" to me.
Except it was 70 years apart.

Historical context was totally different but the words are nearly the same so must be the same

Of course the liberal party of today mouths the words about the quiet Australians and then proceeds to ignore them from a policy point of view.
 

kyuss

Tiger Matchwinner
May 13, 2012
718
616

Sorry I saw Tony Abbots name mentioned and couldn't help myself. What an absolute stain of a human being.
 
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kyuss

Tiger Matchwinner
May 13, 2012
718
616
"You're not saying anything, Tony?". :rotfl2

I'll give him his dues, as a weirdo he is world class. How's the head wobble? :rotfl2

Unbelievable, and he was the leader of our country. Anyone who voted for the coalition that election should be ashamed of themselves.
I get everyone has different opinions, but seriously, Tony *smile* Abbott??????
 
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antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
20,976
6,530
Tones will be go down as an oddity of a PM - no-one will remember what he did once elected. He really had no major policy achievements. Once he got into government he didn't have a clue what to do.
 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,123
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There is a massive difference between accepting personal responsibility and acknowledgement and acceptance of history. Many don’t recognise that difference and combine the two.
If I hit someone I have to accept a personal responsibility for hitting someone but that is not what most indigenous leaders want. They want all Australians to accept the history of what this country did to its indigenous people, to acknowledge it and to teach it.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me but all of us should also acknowledge what that history means to them, how for many of them and their families it is also a lived history and what their culture means especially in relation to the connection to land.

Agree. The factual history of australia’s indigenous peoples needs to be taught warts and all as a mandatory subject at school, years 1 -12 perhaps. To do that, teachers would first need to be taught the factual history of australia’s indigenous peoples warts and all and then how to deliver it. Huge and painful challenge but probably a necessary one.
 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
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Default guilt by way of skin colour is an interesting concept.

Most immigrants have done pretty well in Australia including Asians and people of colour. Should they feel some level of guilt having so successfully taken advantage of a system that has been so racist towards the indigenous? Or does their ethnicity work as a ‘guilt free pass’ because they have no genetic connections to the early settlers? When talking of guilt the focus always seems to be on white Australians, … when are the Chinese community going to say ‘sorry’ for being so damned successful?

If I’m of white european origins who came to Australia in the 70s should I feel a sense of guilt for past crimes against the indigenous communities immediately after my swearing-in ceremony or is there a honeymoon period of say 25-30 years before I should feel bad about being white? Anyone know is there a guilt start/cut off date?

White Australians who have failed to flourish, those from the under classes who have fallen through the safety net and who are living horrible lives void of opportunities, should they share the same level of guilt of prosperous white Australians or is their level of guilt somehow diminished by their generational poverty?

Someone needs to create a user friendly guilt matrix : ) ….
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Champion
Dec 11, 2017
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Melbourne
Guilt is a term used by the right to deflect from the fact that we won't take responsibility for the benefits we gain from aboriginal dispossession.

I don't hear Aboriginal Australians talking about guilt, I hear them talk about wanting to be included in this country and not being treated as second class citizens (since 1967, before then part of the wildlife apparently).

We all benefit we should all be trying to right the wrongs we benefit from.

DS
 
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antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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Exactly. It's not about guilt, it's about recognising what happened in the past and working together for a better future.
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,123
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Guilt is a term used by the right to deflect from the fact that we won't take responsibility for the benefits we gain from aboriginal dispossession.

I don't hear Aboriginal Australians talking about guilt, I hear them talk about wanting to be included in this country and not being treated as second class citizens (since 1967, before then part of the wildlife apparently).

We all benefit we should all be trying to right the wrongs we benefit from.

DS

I don't think politics is so binary. ‘The right’ whoever they are these days don’t have a monopoly on ignoring history and wanting to move on just as ‘the left’ whoever they are don’t own copyrights to the moral high ground. Surely there are hoards of ALP voters who just want to move on in regards to the indigenous issue. Or maybe you're referring to the gov when you use these terms.

You probably wont here the indigenous talking about 'guilt' unless they're psychoanalysing the non indigenous population as I'm silly enough to try and do....hahaha
 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
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I don’t know. I kind of posted about a guilt matrix as a bit of fun but on reflection guilt must be in play here.

As a nation our original sin is how we treated the indigenous peoples. Nearly 2 centuries of shameful practices. And just 50 odd years of enlightenment which has come along as painfully as wisdom teeth. The math points to a reservoir of national shame and with 2 centuries of shame how can guilt not be part of the equation? Where did the guilt go?
If national guilt is not in play then what drives resistance to truly acknowledging and teaching how ugly our history is? Is it indifference, straight out racism or maybe it’s a combo with a side of guilt. I certainly don't know, just exploring here...
 
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tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
13,960
5,242
The Royal family and the British Government were active in the slave trade and slavery when the free settlers and convicts landed/invaded Australia.
Our indigenous brothers and sisters were on a hiding to nothing. The Aboriginals were either going to be massacred or used as slaves, which is what happened.
Has the British Government ever apologised for the disgraceful treatment meted out to the poor souls, I bet they they haven't?
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Champion
Dec 11, 2017
4,182
4,729
Melbourne
I don’t know. I kind of posted about a guilt matrix as a bit of fun but on reflection guilt must be in play here.

As a nation our original sin is how we treated the indigenous peoples. Nearly 2 centuries of shameful practices. And just 50 odd years of enlightenment which has come along as painfully as wisdom teeth. The math points to a reservoir of national shame and with 2 centuries of shame how can guilt not be part of the equation? Where did the guilt go?
If national guilt is not in play then what drives resistance to truly acknowledging and teaching how ugly our history is? Is it indifference, straight out racism or maybe it’s a combo with a side of guilt. I certainly don't know, just exploring here...

The thing about "guilt" as a concept is that it can be (and is) used in such a way as to avoid responsibility. You see, guilt has that very valuable trait of having plausible deniability. The strategy is to set up a straw man by stating "I don't feel guilt - it wasn't me/my forebears who invaded Australia, I wasn't alive at the time etc". Hence, by framing the debate as one about guilt one can avoid taking responsibility by denying guilt. It isn't a bad strategy and has worked to some extent.

DS