Palestine and Israel

[DavidSSS]

Interesting how a mass grave of Palestinians rates barely a mention in our media.

They similarly did not mention a similar situation near the Al-Shifa hospital which was reported at the start of April:

Hossam Shabat, a Palestinian journalist reporting from northern Gaza, said he witnessed "hundreds of bodies" outside of the hospital when he visited the compound on Monday.

"The bodies were in horrific conditions; many had their hands and legs tied behind their backs and were flattened by a bulldozer," Shabat wrote on social media. "Many of the bodies were burned and left to be crushed to pieces.

Indefensible.

DS

 

[DavidSSS]

The time to work towards a real resolution of this conflict was long ago, at least let's make a start now, some sensible commentary by a former foreign minister here:

https://johnmenadue.com/the-urgency-of-palestinian-statehood/

Don't agree with everything he says but it is a start.

DS

 

[Willo]

The time to work towards a real resolution of this conflict was long ago, at least let's make a start now, some sensible commentary by a former foreign minister here:

https://johnmenadue.com/the-urgency-of-palestinian-statehood/

Don't agree with everything he says but it is a start.

DS

Not that I’m against it, but it will never happen. It’s a pipedream now.
Palestinians can’t even agree on one government to represent them. Too many factions, too many want their own power base.
The “moderates” ( if there are any) are unanimously outnumbered by the radical element and their Iranian mad mullah masters who also have their own agenda.

Wishing and hoping won’t cause it to happen. They’ve had 75 years and nothing has eventuated.
People might mean well but the reality is…that a 2 state solution is dead unless Israel does a complete backflip, completely exits the WB. Which it will never do due to security concerns.
If there was ever a chance that would happen, October 7 put an end to it. Hamas set the Palestinian cause back decades. Public sympathy won’t change that.

Thats my opinion, no doubt others will have theirs.

 

[Sintiger]

Not that I’m against it, but it will never happen. It’s a pipedream now.
Palestinians can’t even agree on one government to represent them. Too many factions, too many want their own power base.
The “moderates” ( if there are any) are unanimously outnumbered by the radical element and their Iranian mad mullah masters who also have their own agenda.

Wishing and hoping won’t cause it to happen. They’ve had 75 years and nothing has eventuated.
People might mean well but the reality is…that a 2 state solution is dead unless Israel does a complete backflip, completely exits the WB. Which it will never do due to security concerns.
If there was ever a chance that would happen, October 7 put an end to it. Hamas set the Palestinian cause back decades. Public sympathy won’t change that.

Thats my opinion, no doubt others will have theirs.

People power, never under estimate it. The moderate Palestinians are by far the majority in the population but they don't have a voice which makes it look like they aren't.

Gareth Evans is right, if a solution is on the table people power may take over because most Palestinians want peace. I've got a lot of time for Gareth Evans, he was a major instigator to the peace process in Cambodia years ago when noone thought it possible.
I particularly liked this

But even if the only remaining option is to negotiate a new, democratic, non-apartheid single state (in which the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza enjoy fully equal rights alongside Israel’s Jewish population), giving Palestinians more legitimacy and heft at the bargaining table must be in the interests of securing a genuinely sustainable peace.

Give the Palestinian people a real option and there is a chance because the people will want it. It is sure as hell better than doing nothing which will condemn the region to years of conflict, nothing is surer.

 

[DavidSSS]

Not that I’m against it, but it will never happen. It’s a pipedream now.
Palestinians can’t even agree on one government to represent them. Too many factions, too many want their own power base.
The “moderates” ( if there are any) are unanimously outnumbered by the radical element and their Iranian mad mullah masters who also have their own agenda.

Wishing and hoping won’t cause it to happen. They’ve had 75 years and nothing has eventuated.
People might mean well but the reality is…that a 2 state solution is dead unless Israel does a complete backflip, completely exits the WB. Which it will never do due to security concerns.
If there was ever a chance that would happen, October 7 put an end to it. Hamas set the Palestinian cause back decades. Public sympathy won’t change that.

That's my opinion, no doubt others will have theirs.

You really don't know much history do you?

In the 20th century 2 major wars were fought on European soil, the main protagonists would be Germany, France and the UK. They killed millions of each others' citizens. Today, they are allies, until Brexit they were all in an economic union. Unthinkable decades ago, this is the reality today. You can add that Japan attacked the USA in WWII and they are now allies.

I remember interviewing Jose Ramos Horta back in the 1980s. Back then everyone thought that East Timor would not gain independence from Indonesia, or if they could, it was going to be many decades away - now East Timor is an independent country.

The USA had a revolution to get rid of the UK as their colonial power - today they are allies.

Things change. I see a 2 state solution as a medium term solution and it needs to eventually lead to 1 state or a confederation. However, 2 states is all that can be done now, and it can be done. Take away US support for one side of this dispute and a resolution will be far more urgent, and US public opinion is shifting.

If not a 2 state solution leading to a more permanent resolution, what do you suggest Willo? Expel the Palestinians? Create the Greater Israel that Netanyahu had on his map at the UN in September? That would be the only other alternative as far as I can see, and it is not an alternative which many would agree with as it would be ethnic cleansing.

DS

 

[Willo]

You really don't know much history do you?

I know plenty of history. But no doubt not as much as you.

In the 20th century 2 major wars were fought on European soil, the main protagonists would be Germany, France and the UK. They killed millions of each others' citizens. Today, they are allies, until Brexit they were all in an economic union. Unthinkable decades ago, this is the reality today. You can add that Japan attacked the USA in WWII and they are now allies.

And? Tell us which of those countries shared the same land? Different sets of circumstances set both world wars off. And the 1st World War, led to the 2nd. No similarity at all to Israel and Palestine. None, zero, zilch.
Different religions, different cultures, different ideologies.

I remember interviewing Jose Ramos Horta back in the 1980s. Back then everyone thought that East Timor would not gain independence from Indonesia, or if they could, it was going to be many decades away - now East Timor is an independent country.

And? What’s that got to do with Israel and Palestine?
Once again, completely different set of circumstances

The USA had a revolution to get rid of the UK as their colonial power - today they are allies.

So what? They had more in common than Jews/Israelis and Muslims/ Palestinians. Different circumstances led to the War of Independence. Nothing similar to the Middle East. Nothing, nil, zilch, zero

Things change. I see a 2 state solution as a medium term solution

Without any airey fairey make believe scenarios how would you see this happening? What land go to who?
Israel would never accept pre 1967 borders and after October 7 I doubt very much they’ll do a repeat of Gaza and forcibly withdraw all Israelis from the West Bank. They’ll have learnt their hard lesson.

and it needs to eventually lead to 1 state or a confederation. However, 2 states is all that can be done now, and it can be done.

Hah, when I said previously, when challenged I said the only possibles one sate I got howled down.
I don’t see it ever happening now it’s gone too far. While hamas keeps the kidnapped Israelis, the more intense the reaction, more deaths and more destruction.

Take away US support for one side of this dispute and a resolution will be far more urgent, and US public opinion is shifting.

It might be shifting, but the US will always be with Israel. Public opinion will have its way, then change again

If not a 2 state solution leading to a more permanent resolution, what do you suggest Willo? Expel the Palestinians?

Ive made my suggestion 20or 30 pages back and got howled down. Then I’ve been asked the same thing another 20 or 30 times. Go back and read through it. It’s not up to me to keep writing the same thing .
I don’t have to do anything, I don’t have to offer workable solutions. Just like posters suggest nonsense solutions that will never be accepted by either party.
If they don’t know that Israel won’t go back to pre1967 or 1948 borders they don’t know history as much as they think they do. They’re talking out their arse. They’ve got no idea and just post for the sake of it. Or all 3.

Create the Greater Israel that Netanyahu had on his map at the UN in September?

I doubt Netanyahu will be there much longer. But no doubt that even the moderate and/or conservative factions would have their hearts hardened by October 7. There are still a lot of hardliners there and more since October 7 and while the hostages are still held

That would be the only other alternative as far as I can see, and it is not an alternative which many would agree with as it would be ethnic cleansing.

So maybe the status quo remains. They won’t pull hundreds of thousands of Israelis from the WB. They’ll want that buffer zone and hamas taught everyone a lesson on that. If anyone thinks there will a mass evacuation of the WB Israelis you’re kidding yourself..
You don’t agree I know, but facts are facts

The longer Hamas keep the kidnapped Israelis, the harder the situation becomes..Israel will continue on, more death and destruction, more radical Muslim terrorists, more Israelis/Jews digging in

The other major drawback is as all the pro Palestinia sympathisers have said. Israels action in Gaza will only grow more terrorists to “the cause“. Not for land, but Israel’s destruction. Israel know that as well, so they won’t want to put another million or so right amongst themselves.

DS

Another drawback is who actually negotiates for the any solution? Or their position? Or their wants?
Palestinians can’t even decide that. Or who governs them. Hamas? The PA, The billionaires in Qatar?
They need to get their own house in order.

No doubt in your mind you might be one of the world’s leading historians. Mentioning any of the previous conflicts and wars doesn’t prove that at all. Not that any of them were relevant to Israel and Palestine today.
You could have saved quite a bit of typing by just saying in a lot of cases.…”yesterday‘s enemy might be tomorrow’s friend”

But in this instance the “might” is nearly impossible. Sometimes “today’s enemy remains tomorrow‘s enemy”

The cycle that perpetuates itself for 100+ years will keep going. Mores the pity.

 

[Willo]

People power, never under estimate it. The moderate Palestinians are by far the majority in the population but they don't have a voice which makes it look like they aren't.

Good point. Too often the silent majority stay silent. And reap what comes.

Gareth Evans is right, if a solution is on the table people power may take over because most Palestinians want peace. I've got a lot of time for Gareth Evans, he was a major instigator to the peace process in Cambodia years ago when noone thought it possible.
I particularly liked this

If only that were true. But, imo, too many other parties with their own vested interests might muddy the waters there.
A majority might want peace. But plenty of pro n sympathisers have already said the next generation of terrorists is being created in Gaza. As a result of Israel’s actions. How will that be reversed? Will Israel want to take a chance on them?

But even if the only remaining option is to negotiate a new, democratic, non-apartheid single state (in which the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza enjoy fully equal rights alongside Israel’s Jewish population), giving Palestinians more legitimacy and heft at the bargaining table must be in the interests of securing a genuinely sustainable peace.

Give the Palestinian people a real option and there is a chance because the people will want it.

Funny now Gareth is “the man” A single state. Go back quite a few pages, when asked for my thoughts on a possible solution, when I said that,I was howled down. Now Gareth says it, he’s a *smile* genius. What a hoot.
Thats the sticking point. Who decides what the “real option” is? Each side will have a different view, it would take someone special to be able to facilitate that.

It is sure as hell better than doing nothing which will condemn the region to years of conflict, nothing is surer.

We can only hope.
But I won’t hold my breath. It’s gone beyond that now, for some time at least. Too many fresh open wounds on both sides. Some would be prepared to sit down for the sake of peace for the coming generations, but are they the ones that actually will be leading the way?

I‘m not sure. Actually I’d have no idea who would lead any peace talks or which factions or which masters some answer to.
One thing I would be sure of, is that not all of them on either side would be “peaceniks”

 

[DavidSSS]

Aah, no worries Willo, no solution, I thought as much.

The reality is that a 1 state solution is really the only long term solution, but a medium term 2 state solution is likely the only way to get to the final point.

But I expect nothing constructive from you on this topic, and you deliver so well.

Although, credit where it is due, you did manage to provide evidence of your lack of historical knowledge:

I know plenty of history. But no doubt not as much as you.

And? Tell us which of those countries shared the same land

Ever heard of Alsace-Lorraine?

In 1871 after the Franco-Prussian war it became part of the German Empire.
In 1919 it returned to France as part of the Treaty of Versailles at the conclusion of WWI
In 1941 Nazi Germany took it back.
Following WWII France now holds Alsace-Lorraine.

Not so much shared the same land as fought over the same land.

Yet now the border between Germany and France is an open border as both are Shengen countries.

Things change, and sometimes they need a push to change. I have no idea what you proposed back some pages in this very long thread. Also, as circumstances change so do our assessments of what is possible. If you asked me a couple of years ago about a 2 state solution I would have said no way - but things change and I now see it as the only way to start a process towards solving the Palestine/Israel situation, because a 1 state solution looks even less possible for the medium term. I still can't see 2 states as a permanent solution, but it looks to be the only stepping stone towards a solution in the current context.

DS

 

[Willo]

Aah, no worries Willo, no solution, I thought as much.

The reality is that a 1 state solution is really the only long term solution, but a medium term 2 state solution is likely the only way to get to the final point.

Obviously reading isn’t your forte David. I did answer, I have swerved. Because you might have to do something for yourself you then say “no solution”
Stop being lazy and go find where I already offered my solution. If you can’t be bothered, don’t keep asking the same question.
Maybe. That’s your opinion. It doesn’t make it fact. Exactly the same as mine is an op8nion.

But I expect nothing constructive from you on this topic, and you deliver so well.

Welll there you go. But you’re such an affectionate fellow you keep coming back to me.
Your idea of “constructive” means to agree with you. I give my thoughts rationally and the reasons for them. Not just trot out some meaningless jumbo jumbo that has nothing to do with the topic.
If you can’t keep up, do some overtime and have another read.

Although, credit where it is due, you did manage to provide evidence of your lack of historical knowledge:

So funny. I’ll back my knowledge of history anytime
No lack of knowledge there, only facts, pure and simple.

Ever heard of Alsace-Lorraine?

I certainly have. I’ve even eaten some.

In 1871 after the Franco-Prussian war it became part of the German Empire.
In 1919 it returned to France as part of the Treaty of Versailles at the conclusion of WWI
In 1941 Nazi Germany took it back.

I believe it was actually 1940

Following WWII France now holds Alsace-Lorraine.

Not so much shared the same land as fought over the same land.

And so it means what exactly? What’s your point? That it changed hands several times over 80 years. It changed more times than that. When it was part of Charlemagne’s empire. Then the Holy Roman Empire. Borders of a lot of European countries have changed. So has the USSR. There’s still no context or comparison with Israel and the Palestinians.

Yet now the border between Germany and France is an open border as both are Shengen countries.

So that means what in the context of Israel and Palestinians?

Things change, and sometimes they need a push to change. I have no idea what you proposed back some pages in this very long thread.

No doubt about that. Well you should, you commented on it.

Also, as circumstances change so do our assessments of what is possible. If you asked me a couple of years ago about a 2 state solution I would have said no way - but things change and I now see it as the only way to start a process towards solving the Palestine/Israel situation, because a 1 state solution looks even less possible for the medium term. I still can't see 2 states as a permanent solution, but it looks to be the only stepping stone towards a solution in the current context.

Well when I suggested a 1 state solution that was some time back. I think things have escalated since then. I don’t believe it will be feasible at all for years and years now. Too many people affected and for the reasons I’ve already posted above so I won’t repeat them.
I notice you have rebutted any of what I wrote.
Only your self belief of your intelligence and giving a non sensical history tour that has zero comparison to Israel and Palestinians
And only to try to belittle me. As usual.
Here’s a challenge. Rebutt my post as I do yours, don’t let your high opinion of your intellect go to waste citing obscure moments in history

DS

 

[Willo]

How true is this?

 

[TigerMasochist]

It’s Burma to me, that is the dominant ethnic group there. I don’t recognise the legitimacy of the military junta who changed the name

As for the rest maybe you missed the context of the post? I’ll leave it at that.

Didn't miss the context at all Sinner. Right n Just is strictly a human concept usually espoused by those getting the *smile* kicked out of them and ignored by those doing the *smile* kicking. Old mate Darwin's theory of fittest n strongest holds righteous for every other critter on the planet. Humans just blended in concepts like sneakiest, most manipulative, biggest kabooms, deepest pockets, most neighbours willing to provide back up, etc etc.

So you refuse to recognise the miltary junta that changed Burma to Myanmar, obviously then you cannot recognise or accept any of the other military junta's throughout the worlds history????? That's gunna make for a fairly scrambled up mess of recognising no-one.

 

[Sintiger]

Good point. Too often the silent majority stay silent. And reap what comes.

If only that were true. But, imo, too many other parties with their own vested interests might muddy the waters there.
A majority might want peace. But plenty of pro n sympathisers have already said the next generation of terrorists is being created in Gaza. As a result of Israel’s actions. How will that be reversed? Will Israel want to take a chance on them?

Funny now Gareth is “the man” A single state. Go back quite a few pages, when asked for my thoughts on a possible solution, when I said that,I was howled down. Now Gareth says it, he’s a *smile* genius. What a hoot.
Thats the sticking point. Who decides what the “real option” is? Each side will have a different view, it would take someone special to be able to facilitate that.


We can only hope.
But I won’t hold my breath. It’s gone beyond that now, for some time at least. Too many fresh open wounds on both sides. Some would be prepared to sit down for the sake of peace for the coming generations, but are they the ones that actually will be leading the way?

I‘m not sure. Actually I’d have no idea who would lead any peace talks or which factions or which masters some answer to.
One thing I would be sure of, is that not all of them on either side would be “peaceniks”

I was in and around the Philippines with people power. It’s happened twice there. It’s happened in the Arab spring.
The results ? Meh, of course. But better than before under dictators.
I’ve always been a fan of Gareth Evans but to me it is not the exact solution he is putting up that is important it is the philosophy. I think that’s what David said also. The fact that the Palestinians need to be given hope, something to hold on to. That has to come from international pressure and it has to include the US pressurising Israel. Time for the international community to step up.
How many Palestinians do you think are terrorists? My own view is that if it is 1% it might be overstating it. Hamas whole military is 35,000 in a population of 2.5 million. The rest are like you and me, just want to live in peace. The next generation of terrorists don’t have to be many, as you can see from what is happening now.
You still stick to October 7 statements but what I am looking for is a similar condemnation of the mass slaughter of 300 or so of Palestinians and dumping them in a mass grave. Both are wrong and should be condemned, do you agree?

 

[Sintiger]

Didn't miss the context at all Sinner. Right n Just is strictly a human concept usually espoused by those getting the *smile* kicked out of them and ignored by those doing the *smile* kicking. Old mate Darwin's theory of fittest n strongest holds righteous for every other critter on the planet. Humans just blended in concepts like sneakiest, most manipulative, biggest kabooms, deepest pockets, most neighbours willing to provide back up, etc etc.

So you refuse to recognise the miltary junta that changed Burma to Myanmar, obviously then you cannot recognise or accept any of the other military junta's throughout the worlds history????? That's gunna make for a fairly scrambled up mess of recognising no-one.

So the smile emoji didn’t give away the “tongue in cheek”?

I should have said Myanmar

 

[TigerMasochist]

So the smile emoji didn’t give away the “tongue in cheek”?

I should have said Myanmar

Old fart didn't have his extra eyes on, completely missed the smiley dude.

 

[DavidSSS]

Willo, the point, which is bleedingly obvious, is that countries who have fought wars over bits of land in the not too distant past are now allies. Things change, but not in your world obviously.

If you can't see that then whatevs.

And, no, I can't be bothered going back over hundreds of posts to see your excuse for a solution, it wouldn't be worth it anyway.

Most of what I've seen you put forward is that Palestinians should just leave their lands, which is clearly not a solution.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

No doubt in your mind you might be one of the world’s leading historians. Mentioning any of the previous conflicts and wars doesn’t prove that at all. Not that any of them were relevant to Israel and Palestine today.
You could have saved quite a bit of typing by just saying in a lot of cases.…”yesterday‘s enemy might be tomorrow’s friend”

But in this instance the “might” is nearly impossible. Sometimes “today’s enemy remains tomorrow‘s enemy”

The cycle that perpetuates itself for 100+ years will keep going. Mores the pity.

Willo, without going through the whole post and without putting words in David’s mouth I think the point is that wounds heal, conflicts do stop. It’s not that circumstances are the same because every conflict is different so of course WW2 is different to this conflict.

Some Jews live peacefully now in Germany something unthinkable 80 years ago.

Conflicts need an honest broker or more than one. This conflict needs the US because imo they are the only ones who can get Israel to the negotiating table. But it needs someone else as well who the Palestinians trust. Maybe it is someone like Qatar or maybe the European union. There are many who know international geopolitics better than me to work that out. I mentioned Gareth Evans because he is an example of how a middle power country like Australia can play a role. Cambodia was a country decimated by the Khmer Rouge and more than a decade of occupation by Vietnam, victims families were living close to ex Khmer Rouge fighters. Yet a solution was found because the Cambodian people didn’t want retribution, they wanted peace. The UN played a role there for quite a while after that as well.

Hamas has already said if there is a permanent cease fire they will release the hostages. That has to be the first step because rightly or wrongly they will not release them knowing that as soon as they do the barrage starts again. As horrible as it is those hostages are the only leverage they have. The other side is that in Israel itself the idea of a permanent ceasefire to get the hostages released has a lot of public support but Netanyahu knows if he does that the extremists in his government will walk away and he is finished.

 

[Willo]

I was in and around the Philippines with people power. It’s happened twice there. It’s happened in the Arab spring.
The results ? Meh, of course. But better than before under dictators.
I’ve always been a fan of Gareth Evans but to me it is not the exact solution he is putting up that is important it is the philosophy. I think that’s what David said also.

I think the Philippines is a different scenario. People power to oust a dictator.
The Arab spring, people power but more or less the same, one people trying to oust a dictator, but probably only swap one for another
I get what you’re saying about the strength and power of people power but there is a major difference in circumstances.
Maybe it is what David is saying on one hand, but when I offered a suggestion it was rubbished.
It seems like it’s only a viable solution depending on who’s suggesting it.

The fact that the Palestinians need to be given hope, something to hold on to. That has to come from international pressure and it has to include the US pressurising Israel. Time for the international community to step up.

Ive suggested something similar and the reasons for it. But that’s been overlooked or disregarded several times

How many Palestinians do you think are terrorists? My own view is that if it is 1% it might be overstating it. Hamas whole military is 35,000 in a population of 2.5 million. The rest are like you and me, just want to live in peace.

i have no idea how many are terrorists but 35,000 is a bloody lot of terrorists. How many are terrorist sympathisers and supporters?
Whatever the figures are they can do a lot of damage. How many Hezbollah are Palestinians?
Of course the majority want to live in peace. The minority have caused so much grief, which is typical. Yet they allow them to rule knowing what they are all about.

The next generation of terrorists don’t have to be many, as you can see from what is happening now.

Exactly. And exactly why Israel is trying to eradicate them. They can’t just let Hamas stay where they are and repeat their atrocities
But if another generation of terrorist is formed, the cycle repeats.

You still stick to October 7 statements

Well it happened. If it hadn’t, Israel wouldn’t have gone after Hamas and the death and destruction in Gaza wouldn’t have occurred. There is no getting away from that

but what I am looking for is a similar condemnation of the mass slaughter of 300 or so of Palestinians and dumping them in a mass grave.

While there is evidence of mass graves, where is the evidence of “mass slaughter”?
Were they victims of bombings? Were they collaborators? Who buried them, Israel or other Palestinians. He said , she said.

Both are wrong and should be condemned, do you agree?

I thought I’ve answered that many times over the course of these discussions. Obviously some people suffer from a short memory span or don’t read what I actually post. But I’ll say it again.
I deplore the loss of any innocent civilians. Israeli or Palestinian .
No doubt I’ll get asked that again…and again

Now how about you answer one question in return. If October 7 didn’t happen do you believe the death and destruction in Gaza would have occurred?
A simple “yes” or “no” will do. No deflecting, no waffling on. A simple yes or no.

 

[Sintiger]

I think the Philippines is a different scenario. People power to oust a dictator.
The Arab spring, people power but more or less the same, one people trying to oust a dictator, but probably only swap one for another
I get what you’re saying about the strength and power of people power but there is a major difference in circumstances.
Maybe it is what David is saying on one hand, but when I offered a suggestion it was rubbished.
It seems like it’s only a viable solution depending on who’s suggesting it.

I've addressed that in a different post. Of course it is different but that is not the point, every conflict is different. It is the concept of people power that is the important element

Ive suggested something similar and the reasons for it. But that’s been overlooked or disregarded several times

Didn't say you didn't

i have no idea how many are terrorists but 35,000 is a bloody lot of terrorists. How many are terrorist sympathisers and supporters?
Whatever the figures are they can do a lot of damage. How many Hezbollah are Palestinians?
Of course the majority want to live in peace. The minority have caused so much grief, which is typical. Yet they allow them to rule knowing what they are all about.

35,000 is the Hamas militia, I didn't say they were all terrorists . They are essentially an army, like the IDF is an army.

Exactly. And exactly why Israel is trying to eradicate them. They can’t just let Hamas stay where they are and repeat their atrocities
But if another generation of terrorist is formed, the cycle repeats.

they know they can't eradicate them, we've been over and over that.

 

[Willo]

, without going through the whole post and without putting words in David’s mouth I think the point is that wounds heal, conflicts do stop.

I get that, hence why I said “todays enemy might be tomorrows friend” I didn’t need a history lesson on conflicts that have started and stopped.

It’s not that circumstances are the same because every conflict is different so of course WW2 is different to this conflict.

Of course, That’s exactly what I said .I’m glad we agree

Some Jews live peacefully now in Germany something unthinkable 80 years ago.

For sure. I’m aware of that. Many Jews fought for Germany in WW1. Even up to WW2 they believed themselves as Germans. Seeing as many had lived there for hundreds of years

Conflicts need an honest broker or more than one. This conflict needs the US because imo they are the only ones who can get Israel to the negotiating table. But it needs someone else as well who the Palestinians trust. Maybe it is someone like Qatar or maybe the European union.

Yea and I already suggested the signatories of the Abraham Accords as a starter. But obviously once again that’s been overlooked or forgotten. People judge yhe messenger rather than the message. That’s quite obvious, more fools them.

There are many who know international geopolitics better than me to work that out. I mentioned Gareth Evans because he is an example of how a middle power country like Australia can play a role. Cambodia was a country decimated by the Khmer Rouge and more than a decade of occupation by Vietnam, victims families were living close to ex Khmer Rouge fighters. Yet a solution was found because the Cambodian people didn’t want retribution, they wanted peace. The UN played a role there for quite a while after that as well.

Different circumstances. One murderous ideological crew decimating their own. As for retribution, I think it was because they were so traumatised, for many it’s still ha an effect today.
Pity the UN didn’t play a role there to stop millions dying. But turned up after as usual.

Hamas has already said if there is a permanent cease fire they will release the hostages.

Israel won’t agree to a permanent ceasefire while Hamas remain. Why would they? It would mean it’s all been for naught if Hamas survive and remain in power.
Just tell the murderous scum to release the hostages and surrender.
Then there might be a chance for a permanent ceasefire and an end to the hostilities

That has to be the first step because rightly or wrongly they will not release them knowing that as soon as they do the barrage starts again.

No it doesn’t. Not if the murders surrender. If they do, it’s done. It’s only about self preservation for the terrorists. Nothing less. And Israel won’t stop until Hamas is finished off.

As horrible as it is those hostages are the only leverage they have.

The only leverage for self preservation of murderers. Anyone who agrees they must remain as hostages until Israel gives in to hamas is *smile* in the head.

The other side is that in Israel itself the idea of a permanent ceasefire to get the hostages released has a lot of public support but Netanyahu knows if he does that the extremists in his government will walk away and he is finished.

It’s not Netanyahu who makes decisions by himself. Israel isn’t a dictatorship. People want to keep painting it as it’s all about Netanyahu desperately clinging to power and he’s the only person making any decisions. Wrong.

That just shows the ignorance and bias that people have. If Netanyahu was removed there still would be no permanceasefire until the hostages were returned.
People will say I’m wrong. But I’m not, just look at Israel’s history. Entebbe is a good example. Eerily enough, guess whose brother was killed in that rescue operation?

I will say it again as no doubt it’s been overlooked or disregarded as usual.
My opinion only.
Peace won’t happen for some time because too many are traumatised and have had their hearts hardened by what has occurred.
The longer the hostages are held, the more the Israelis will keep going in Gaza.
If Hamas surrendered and released the hostages tomorrow, I doubt either side would want to sit down with the other to talk about 2 state or 1 state solutions.
There is too much remnant hostility for that to happen straight away. Which is what I’ve consistently said. it will take a lot of time for that to actually happen. If ever.
If people disagree and think both sides will sit down immediately and hammer out a solution thats their choice to believe that.

But we‘ll agree to disagree. After all they’re only our opinions.

 

[Willo]

I've addressed that in a different post. Of course it is different but that is not the point, every conflict is different. It is the concept of people power that is the important element

People power, I’ve agreed with. In the right scenario. It doesn’t always achieve its aims.

Didn't say you didn't

Good

35,000 is the Hamas militia, I didn't say they were all terrorists .

No, I did. Hamas weren’t formed as a peacekeeping force were they. Just have a rwad of their manifesto.

They are essentially an army, like the IDF is an army.

Yes an army of terrorists. Or as I’ve said previously a terror army the same as Hezbollah is.

they know they can't eradicate them, we've been over and over that.

Yes we have. And also said why there won’t be a permanent ceasefire while Hamas holds the hostages.
So I don’t know why it keeps being brought up. Wishing and hoping is a song, not reality.