Sounds terrible Julz. I do think ti would be terrible to be a guard at one of those places. Wouldnt be the best living there either as a detainee but sounds like the deal they have isnt so bad.
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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Preferred Opposition Leader
- Thread starter CanbTiger
- Start date
Some things about detention people might not know. Our immigration detention policy was introduced in 1992 (wasn't that the Labour Goverment??) Australia is not the only Western country to detain people - Britain, Canada, Sweden and the US do also. In these centre detainees obtain free medical and dental services, education programs for children and adults including English language instruction, cultural activities, sporting activies and religious services. People are not classed as "refugees" until their claims for protection are assessed against the UN Convention & Protocol relating to the status of refugees, and they are accorded such status. The majority of asylum seekers are free in the community while they pursue their claims because they arrived lawfully with a valid visa, only those who arrived illegally are detained.
And if you think things are tough in Australia - try obtaining a green card in the US!
And if you think things are tough in Australia - try obtaining a green card in the US!
julzqld said:
It's interesting to note the differences between different media forums' presentation of detention camps.
The tabloids have run a few articles on detention centres in the past such as that from Sandy Thorne.
The ABC and broadsheets on the other hand have accounts from nurses, former guards and former detainees who describe how awful it is in the detention centres and how cruel the guards are. Natasha Stott-Despoja visited the Woomera/ Baxter detention centre and came out crying "get the children out", it's a "hell-hole".
Just who are you supposed to believe ???
It is always important to remember that the media always has an agenda.
I don't know much about detention centres, so I can't assume to know what the conditions are like.
With regard to the violence of detainees, I think it is important to remember that people are a product of their environment. (At least partially) Considering that many detainees have been living in war-ravaged countries since birth, it is problematic to judge their behaviour according to Australian standards.
This issue is huge and I hope that who ever governs Australia after the next election makes a commitment to do everything in their power to find a better alternative to mandatory detention.
I certainly don't know what a better alternative is, but we need to keep looking outside the box.
I don't know much about detention centres, so I can't assume to know what the conditions are like.
With regard to the violence of detainees, I think it is important to remember that people are a product of their environment. (At least partially) Considering that many detainees have been living in war-ravaged countries since birth, it is problematic to judge their behaviour according to Australian standards.
This issue is huge and I hope that who ever governs Australia after the next election makes a commitment to do everything in their power to find a better alternative to mandatory detention.
I certainly don't know what a better alternative is, but we need to keep looking outside the box.
:grinsanta ahhhhhh alleycat... and with that avatar as well- just classic.
For those interested in the asylum seeker issue and some of the myths being put forward by the Howard govt, the following link may help:
www.refugeeaction.org/downloads/casefreerefugees.pdf
There's also lots of other information on that site including the following statistics:
INFORMATION ON IRAN (where many detainees are being deported to)
from :http://www.iranncrfac.org
· 120,000 executions on political grounds: victims include pregnant women, elderly women and school children.
· 30,000 political prisoners massacred in 1988 … more each year
· Over 170 forms of physical and psychological torture
· Stoning, hanging in public, eye gouging, amputation of fingers, hands and legs, beheading and flogging in public carried out as “punishment”
· Discrimination against women in law and practice
· Suppression of religious and ethnic minorities
· 474 public executions announced in 2002, a rise of 50% on the previous year
· 80 newspapers, and periodicals have been closed down by the regime since April 2000.dozens of journalists remain in jail.
· Highest suicide rate in the world - 200 fatal suicide attempts 100,00 population
· 1,500 leave the country every day, fleeing the mullahs’ repression
For those interested in the asylum seeker issue and some of the myths being put forward by the Howard govt, the following link may help:
www.refugeeaction.org/downloads/casefreerefugees.pdf
There's also lots of other information on that site including the following statistics:
INFORMATION ON IRAN (where many detainees are being deported to)
from :http://www.iranncrfac.org
· 120,000 executions on political grounds: victims include pregnant women, elderly women and school children.
· 30,000 political prisoners massacred in 1988 … more each year
· Over 170 forms of physical and psychological torture
· Stoning, hanging in public, eye gouging, amputation of fingers, hands and legs, beheading and flogging in public carried out as “punishment”
· Discrimination against women in law and practice
· Suppression of religious and ethnic minorities
· 474 public executions announced in 2002, a rise of 50% on the previous year
· 80 newspapers, and periodicals have been closed down by the regime since April 2000.dozens of journalists remain in jail.
· Highest suicide rate in the world - 200 fatal suicide attempts 100,00 population
· 1,500 leave the country every day, fleeing the mullahs’ repression
I do feel sorry for the people Canbtiger, I honestly do, but I jsut wish theyd try to get here legally. I dont blame them for wanting to get out, I do feel for them, but I do belive the system is in place for a reason. Come here legally no problem, try to beat the queue and get in illegally , I dont agree with.
Difficult to come here legally when you're fleeing Afghanistan, Iraq or Iran I reckon shawry.
I can't imagine there being too many australian consulates around in a war zone/ unstable regime so I think you just have to flee across the borders....
I can't imagine there being too many australian consulates around in a war zone/ unstable regime so I think you just have to flee across the borders....
I agree with Shawry that our immigration and border protection policies are acceptable in the current climate and as most have said, there is no quick fix and there is no way a change in government would make an ounce of difference!!!
As far as the media slant on this goes, they all have an agenda with everything they report. Remember also that there are 3 types of lies in this world, Lies, Damn lies and statistics.(except for disposals and clangers ;D)
As far as Natasha Spot the spoiler goes, she is the biggest grandstander of them all! I'm sure I saw her standing next to Joffa at this years GF until the Pies started to get flogged and she disappeared quicker than a doughnut on survivor. ;D
As far as the media slant on this goes, they all have an agenda with everything they report. Remember also that there are 3 types of lies in this world, Lies, Damn lies and statistics.(except for disposals and clangers ;D)
As far as Natasha Spot the spoiler goes, she is the biggest grandstander of them all! I'm sure I saw her standing next to Joffa at this years GF until the Pies started to get flogged and she disappeared quicker than a doughnut on survivor. ;D
Shawry.......wake up and smell the roses. This is the most deceitful, dishonest, corrupt Government that I have ever had the misfortune to vote against. They won the last election on a lie. They sent Australians to war on a lie. In fact they cant open their slimey little mouths without some form of untruths coming out. I would love to take the time to name all but the website isnt big enough. Bonsai (mini bush) cant even open his mouth unless he knows what George W is thinking. As far as refugees goes Shawry you are so far out of touch you could get a ministerial job in this Government. I used to go and pick up these so called "queue jumpers" up and beleive me these people beleive that Australia is waiting to welcome them with open arms because thats what the people smugglers tell them.
They took $10 off every one flying to give the Ansett workers some of their money back but then decided to spend it elsewhere until ACA got onto them and then they just pointed the finger at everyone else until they did another backflip. Of course if they had worked for Howards brother they wouldve got it without a worry in the world. But Shawry if you accept being constantly lied to then you go ahead keep voting for them.
P.S I hope interest rates dont go up to much or you might find you are selling your house rather then living in it.
They took $10 off every one flying to give the Ansett workers some of their money back but then decided to spend it elsewhere until ACA got onto them and then they just pointed the finger at everyone else until they did another backflip. Of course if they had worked for Howards brother they wouldve got it without a worry in the world. But Shawry if you accept being constantly lied to then you go ahead keep voting for them.
P.S I hope interest rates dont go up to much or you might find you are selling your house rather then living in it.
When i was in Melbourne earlier this year, i had the pleasure of being driven to the airport, by one of these so called queue jumpers.
We had a good chat and he told me how much he liked Australia etc.
He said how his first job was at the Ford factory, and that he was now driving a taxi, and was putting his 2 daughters through university.
We had a good old chat and he went on to say that he had recently picked an elderly lady from Toorak and was taking her to the airport.
I guess that she was probably asking him questions like i was, because when he told her that he had 2 daughters going to universy, she said to him "but who's going to work in the factories." What a disgraceful thing to say.
I felt like apologising to him. What I did say to him though, was if I was him i would of pulled over and told her to get out.
I've got a fair idea of what her political persuasion would be. Let the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
We had a good chat and he told me how much he liked Australia etc.
He said how his first job was at the Ford factory, and that he was now driving a taxi, and was putting his 2 daughters through university.
We had a good old chat and he went on to say that he had recently picked an elderly lady from Toorak and was taking her to the airport.
I guess that she was probably asking him questions like i was, because when he told her that he had 2 daughters going to universy, she said to him "but who's going to work in the factories." What a disgraceful thing to say.
I felt like apologising to him. What I did say to him though, was if I was him i would of pulled over and told her to get out.
I've got a fair idea of what her political persuasion would be. Let the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
General debate
Walstar
do really believe that the majority of people voted the way they did due only to the children overboard affair. Come on, get real. I'm a floating voter, probably closer to conservative than labor but I have voted left before and will do again based on the policies that my local member puts forward. I don't vote for a party . I vote for what I believe is best for this country we live in.
The country now does need an interest rate increase as there is no way that a first home buyer can ever afford to purchase a house, due to the high investment in the private market. People are by nature greedy, if houses have to be sold then its due to people paying more than the house is worth, or are living above their means. There are people who have two or three mortgages and house that cannot be rfented due to what they are asking for. This is just greed.
As far as lying this is no different to any of the past governments in what is considered a lie. Can you remember Ros Kelly's white board method of allocating sports grants. This lie, that lie, all politicians embellish the truth come election time, I'll simply point you at Steve Bracks giverment. No Toll ways, this was never a promise that he could keep, he knew that, or if he didn't then vic roads did. This one statement delivered bracksie thirteen swinging seats in Melbourne's Green belt. We will not increase taxes and speed cameras are for safety not revenue. If this was not the case why in the last state budget did he allow for an increase in the revenue rather than treat anything from cameras as a bonus, surely if he didn't consider it revenue he wouldn't budget for any speed fines. Also budgeted for was a further increase in stamp duty to cover spending. Well guess what the real estate market is just about ready to burst if we have just one more interest rate hike then it will go bang.
We have whole police departments unable to operate due to budgetary restraints, maybe if the speeding fines could be delivered to the police instead of consolidated revenue we could afford DNA tests to be completed before the case reaches courts.
I can point out more issue with any goverment if you want, I can also find things that I think are correct.
If you only look for negatives, that is all you will find.
Good to have an interesting debate, but there is no reason to belittle your opponent.
Lets Roar in 2004
Khan
p.s Good to see the line of the Howard Government didn't get 50% of the vote hasn't been used as The 1992 Paul Keating election also had a similar result.
Walstar
do really believe that the majority of people voted the way they did due only to the children overboard affair. Come on, get real. I'm a floating voter, probably closer to conservative than labor but I have voted left before and will do again based on the policies that my local member puts forward. I don't vote for a party . I vote for what I believe is best for this country we live in.
The country now does need an interest rate increase as there is no way that a first home buyer can ever afford to purchase a house, due to the high investment in the private market. People are by nature greedy, if houses have to be sold then its due to people paying more than the house is worth, or are living above their means. There are people who have two or three mortgages and house that cannot be rfented due to what they are asking for. This is just greed.
As far as lying this is no different to any of the past governments in what is considered a lie. Can you remember Ros Kelly's white board method of allocating sports grants. This lie, that lie, all politicians embellish the truth come election time, I'll simply point you at Steve Bracks giverment. No Toll ways, this was never a promise that he could keep, he knew that, or if he didn't then vic roads did. This one statement delivered bracksie thirteen swinging seats in Melbourne's Green belt. We will not increase taxes and speed cameras are for safety not revenue. If this was not the case why in the last state budget did he allow for an increase in the revenue rather than treat anything from cameras as a bonus, surely if he didn't consider it revenue he wouldn't budget for any speed fines. Also budgeted for was a further increase in stamp duty to cover spending. Well guess what the real estate market is just about ready to burst if we have just one more interest rate hike then it will go bang.
We have whole police departments unable to operate due to budgetary restraints, maybe if the speeding fines could be delivered to the police instead of consolidated revenue we could afford DNA tests to be completed before the case reaches courts.
I can point out more issue with any goverment if you want, I can also find things that I think are correct.
If you only look for negatives, that is all you will find.
Good to have an interesting debate, but there is no reason to belittle your opponent.
Lets Roar in 2004
Khan
p.s Good to see the line of the Howard Government didn't get 50% of the vote hasn't been used as The 1992 Paul Keating election also had a similar result.
Tiger Joe
Even though you are possibly correct as to her voting persuausion, you dont know. That is no better than to say that all 60 year old Intalians work on the docks and are union members. If she was elderlly, they come form a different time and world, and unless people point things out to them they would never change there ways
Lets Roar
Khan
Even though you are possibly correct as to her voting persuausion, you dont know. That is no better than to say that all 60 year old Intalians work on the docks and are union members. If she was elderlly, they come form a different time and world, and unless people point things out to them they would never change there ways
Lets Roar
Khan
Re:General debate
I also never said other Governments didnt lie I simply said that this was the most deceitful and dishonest one.
And for crying out loud sports grants and toll ways dont rate with me compared to sending troops off to war on lies and misinformation.
I also fail to see how I belittled anyone.
I think Khan that we must agree to disagree and by the way I will not be voting for Bracks again for many reasons including the ones you mentioned. But I blame a lame opposition for giving them such a mandate as the voters really had no choice but to vote for him.
Ok getting off my soap-box now. ;D
Khan I didnt suggest this at all but enough swinging voters were persuaded by the lie and ensuing hard line on refugees. If you remember Labour was well in front in the polls and most political pundits agree that the children overboard was what won the election. This is a fact.Khan said:
I also never said other Governments didnt lie I simply said that this was the most deceitful and dishonest one.
And for crying out loud sports grants and toll ways dont rate with me compared to sending troops off to war on lies and misinformation.
I also fail to see how I belittled anyone.
I think Khan that we must agree to disagree and by the way I will not be voting for Bracks again for many reasons including the ones you mentioned. But I blame a lame opposition for giving them such a mandate as the voters really had no choice but to vote for him.
Ok getting off my soap-box now. ;D
Coolies
Lets agree to disagree. I dont see the war as being a lie, just that Australia has f..d up intelliegence services that was being fed the same crap from both the UK and US.
I may have read more into "the wake up and smell the roses" iot tends to implie to me "you idiot" but what the hey, as i said good to see general debate.
Catch ya at the finals
Khan
Lets agree to disagree. I dont see the war as being a lie, just that Australia has f..d up intelliegence services that was being fed the same crap from both the UK and US.
I may have read more into "the wake up and smell the roses" iot tends to implie to me "you idiot" but what the hey, as i said good to see general debate.
Catch ya at the finals
Khan
Re:General debate
Khan
Perhaps it is best if we do agree to disagree.
But I would just like to remind you one thing. ;D
When the Liberal goverment, lost the blue ribbon seat of Ryan in the by election of April 2001, the Howard goverment were in disaray.
The gst had not been well received, and then to lose one of the safest seats in Australia. (it had been in liberal hands for over 50 years)
The penny dropped to John Howard, with the loss of that seat and with opinion polls that Simon Crean knows all about, it was desparation stakes.
He then played the right bower, or drove the wedge in if you like. The illegal immigrants issue was the master stroke as he new that the majority of voters would agree with him.
I believe that it was morally wrong, but I tell you what it was politically smart.
It won him another election and got rid of one nation in one foul swoop, as he stolen their thunder.
That's the way I see it any way.
All the best for the xmas and the new year, and Carn the Tiges!!!!
Khan said:
Khan
Perhaps it is best if we do agree to disagree.
But I would just like to remind you one thing. ;D
When the Liberal goverment, lost the blue ribbon seat of Ryan in the by election of April 2001, the Howard goverment were in disaray.
The gst had not been well received, and then to lose one of the safest seats in Australia. (it had been in liberal hands for over 50 years)
The penny dropped to John Howard, with the loss of that seat and with opinion polls that Simon Crean knows all about, it was desparation stakes.
He then played the right bower, or drove the wedge in if you like. The illegal immigrants issue was the master stroke as he new that the majority of voters would agree with him.
I believe that it was morally wrong, but I tell you what it was politically smart.
It won him another election and got rid of one nation in one foul swoop, as he stolen their thunder.
That's the way I see it any way.
All the best for the xmas and the new year, and Carn the Tiges!!!!
I didnt say the illegal imigrations issue didn't win him the election just not the children overboadr. I beleive that border protection was the issue and Kim Beazly changing his position near the end.
Dont get me wrong as I have said elsewhere I dont neccesarily agree with refugee/migration issues.
Khan
Dont get me wrong as I have said elsewhere I dont neccesarily agree with refugee/migration issues.
Khan
Walster said:
Its all a matter of opinion mate. Labor lies constantly and seems to only focus on what people want to hear. I dont like yes men.
Adn for my house, I wil ahve no problems meeting the repayments thank you very much,.
shawry said:
Yeah, I know shawry and that’s the point the Federal Government is trying to make.
“These people are deliberately choosing Australia to flee to and the country is at risk of being swamped as an easy target unless we take strict measures to repel the attack”
Very true, but then if I had the money and opportunity and I was the victim of persecution in a place like Iran/ Afghanistan, I’d probably flee to Australia or some Western country as well. Certainly seems a better option than some war zone or squalid refugee camp in places such as Palestine, Syria or Iraq
For what it’s worth I don’t think Australia (and other western countries) are doing enough to assist third world countries hemorrhaging with refugees. I’ve read stories of enormous refugee camps in some African countries and I know that in Palestine there are generations of families living in such camps with little apparent opportunity for escape.
I really think Australia needs to consider taking more refugees for mine- we don’t even take our quota at present (Shame!).
We have an aging population and declining birth rate that is going to drastically increase the tax burden on young people in the future unless there is a major reversal in population (or significant cuts to welfare). If Australians started living to their environment and stopped living as though they were in Europe I believe our environment could handle a larger population.
I really feel guilty that my ancestors (who were refugees) were able to get on a boat and flee their country to Australia whereas today’s refugees are treated as outlaws when they try to do the same thing.
PS-
Tiga: LOL- Stott- Despoja may have been with Joffa at one stage and then left but I’m sure it wasn’t due to the score-line. Can you imagine spending the full length of a game with Joffa??…… Just don’t mention the pink magpies :winksanta
Walster:…. Bonsai (little Bush) :laughsanta. Also, as u say, Labor lies but then to lie about the reasons for war like the Coalition has just done…..unforgiveable
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What A Crock!!
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Danny Green:
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