Preferred Opposition Leader

[the claw]

my two bobs worth. i think most people who support illegals overlook one tiny little point. most of them land in indonesia, and once landed are no longer refugees, as they have found safe haven. indonesia not being good enough for them, they then fork out thousands of dollars to jump the queue. ahead of the poor buggers doing the right thing who go thru the correct channels. they then have the temerity to complain about conditions in our detention centres once they get here. i say to the lot of them go back to indnesia and wait your turn in one of their camps im sure there would be no complaints about our facilities if they did. for every illegal and theres no question about it they are. theres some poor bugger in a camp of squallor whos just had his spot taken by a queue jumper

 

[Rosy]

I was keeping out of this one, I'm happy to admit my apathy towards politics...zzzzzzz.......gotta admit I'm a bit a(be)mused by anyone thinking one party is infallible and wouldn't agree with the opposition on principal.....but anyway don't go there rosy. :grinsanta


A few months ago I was in the city and the rent-a crowd brigade were protesting in regard to the boat people.
I got pretty pissed off with them because they blocked Bourke St and I had to wait a couple of hours for a tram to get through. (They had talks in the mall, moved a couple of blocks up and went through it again, then spent ages up the top near Gaslight....cost me a fortune buying cd's while I waited, ha.)

Anyway I asked some of the people what was the point they were trying to get across. They all said we had plenty of space so should accept anyone who wanted to lob on our shores. I got the opinion they thought we should let them get off the boats and head off into the sunset to make a new life.

It just doesn't work that way though. As claw said there are legal means of getting in and the people applying through the proper channels shouldn't be penalised.

People coming in need to live by the same laws as we do, and they need to able to be accounted for.

I don't know the answers, but I'd love to hear the opinions of people who think we should open our shores for anyone who decides they want to call Australia home.

 

[Walster]

.

It just doesn't work that way though. As claw said there are legal means of getting in and the people applying through the proper channels shouldn't be penalised.

IMHO I think this a very blinkered view Rosy and Claw. For a start their is a big difference between a migrant, a refugee and an asylum seeker. Refugees are often forced to flee from persicution with only the clothes on their back and whatever money they can. Yes some of these people are not destitute but still have genuine fears for their lives and the lives of their families because they are of a different race, religion or have different political views etc. For these reasons, many if not all are unable to apply through legitimate avenues to settle in another country. Claw you state that these people go back to Indonesia and wait their turn but the problem with that is that Indonesia is not a signatory to the Refugee Covention and therefor is under no obligation not to send refugees back to their own country. Facts are even if a person is found to be a genuine refugee when in Indonesia, Australia still accepts only a very small proportion of these. This is why people take their chances with the people smugglers and as I have said before they are told they will be welcomed with open arms. I have seen this first hand. The 14 Kurds pushed off Melville that the Government lied about, yet again, have been publicly told by the Indonesian minister that there is no reason why they shouldnt go back. As a result the Australian Government could be prosecuted under the convention to which IT is a signatory. I for one hope they are prosecuted. Dont forget some of these people have been beaten, tortured, imprisoned and seen family members shot and killed in front of them and as the old saying goes "If not for the grace of God go I". What I am not saying is let them in open slather but quicken up the processing of these people so that the genuine refugees and especially their children dont have to spend years behind bars. Remember they are people whose only crime is to seek a better life that we take for granted.
Ok had my say now ;D

 

[Rosy]

IMHO I think this a very blinkered view Rosy and Claw.

Blinkered it may well appear Walster, but I admitted I don't have the answers.

I was talking of illegal entry into Australia.

Do you have a solution? Surely letting thousands of people just arrive here and have no government record can't work.

What about health care, welfare, housing, sanitation, crime etc?

What about the people who can't afford to buy/bribe their passage, why should they have less chance of a new life because others have disregard for our laws?

I'd love to know the answer but can't see the option of letting people come here illegally and with no records making any sense at all, yet that's what the rent a crowd brigade I mentioned seemed to be advocating.

 

[Rosy]

What about health care, welfare, housing, sanitation, crime etc?

I forgot to add something that will be a big problem in this country with an increasing population in years to come and that is water.

To me it's way more blinkered to just say let people in without offering feasible solutions to the problem.

 

[Walster]

What about health care, welfare, housing, sanitation, crime etc?

I forgot to add something that will be a big problem in this country with an increasing population in years to come and that is water.

To me it's way more blinkered to just say let people in without offering feasible solutions to the problem.

I agree Rosy water is a major problem and the country can only sustain so many people but I think that is another story. I said I did not want open slather on people coming in but I beleive we have a moral and humanatarian obligation to help geniune refugees. At current estimates there are 23milliion refugees in the world of which Australia currently has a little over 1100, (200 of which are children) in detention centres including Christmas Island and Nauru. Hardly an invasion force,just a drop in the ocean really ('scuse the pun) As far as welfare health care employment etc goes its no different to any other migrant........what I dont understand is your reference to crime and santitation, are you expecting all refugees to go rob a bank and then take a dump in the street.
Facts are we get very few refugees compared with Europe but they dont keep their detainees locked up for years. In Sweden once ID has been confirmed and there is no threat to national security they must be released into the commmunity within two weeks while their application is processed. All they have to do is report to the relevant authorities...a psuedo bail if you like and they have very few jumpers. On the other hand nobody complains about the 50,000 people here that overstay their visas every year. How many of these just disappear into the system.
So illegal imigrants......NO
Genuine refugees........YES

 

[tigerman]

What about health care, welfare, housing, sanitation, crime etc?

I forgot to add something that will be a big problem in this country with an increasing population in years to come and that is water.

To me it's way more blinkered to just say let people in without offering feasible solutions to the problem.

We certainly don't want to let them in willy nilly, but the amount of them that we had arriving was only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
It's a tuff one, I don't know what the answer is that's for sure.

Rosy

In regards to the water problem. There is truck loads of water in the North West of Australia.
The Argyle dam holds about 35 times the amount of water as the Sydney harbour, and has a capacity, when full of over 50 times.

There has been talk of damming the Fitzroy river, which in flood has a front of over 30 kilometres and it is said that it would fill the Sydney harbour in about 4 hours. If memory serves me right.

Thats a hell of alot of water.

If any government would show a bit of foresight and build a pipeline(s) form the North West there would be an abundance of water for every body.

Unfortunately there is no government that is prepared to do it.
There's no votes in it for them and wont go through many electorates which might help them win an election.
It would be nice if the Packers and Murdocks of the world, as well as some of the multi nationals would put something back into this great country.

CARN THE TIGES!!!!

 

[tigerman]

Walster you pinched my line about "a drop in the ocean." ;D

Oh well, I'll just have to learn to type faster.

 

[the claw]

walster your sitting in a *smile* hole for two or five yrs going thru the right channels. doing the right thing. you have very little money certainly not enough to bribe a passage to aust. and along comes joe bloggs from iran afganistan or where ever. and takes your spot because he can afford to. how would you feel if it were me id want to kill the bastard.

 

[tigerman]

They may get the cash by selling a kidney.
Which is common place over there.

 

[Walster]

walster your sitting in a sh!t hole for two or five yrs going thru the right channels. doing the right thing. you have very little money certainly not enough to bribe a passage to aust. and along comes joe bloggs from iran afganistan or where ever. and takes your spot because he can afford to. how would you feel if it were me id want to kill the bastard.

I never said anything was fair claw. As I said the UN High Council assesses the refugee status of these people but Australia still accepts only a very small amount. BTW opinion polls are starting to favour acceptance of refugees now.......certainly the release of children from detention centres.

 

[Rosy]

So illegal imigrants......NO
Genuine refugees........YES

Walster you said I have a blinkered view on illegal immigrants then gave your opinions on completely different matters.

After some romantic postings about moral and ethical duties you actually posted you are anti illegal immigrants yourself.

I wasn't talking about future planning to help with the problem....I was talking about people arriving illegally at the moment.

I, like many others, would love to see some solution through proper channels but that wasn't what I was talking about when you critisised my opinion, and you certainly didn't offer any solutions to it into the bargain.

It's the same as the rent a crowd saying we have plenty of room so we shopuld let them all in. Simple solution, but neither practical nor logical.

At the moment the country isn't geared to cope with illegal immigrants properly so I see no sense in giving them the Govt's blessing. I'd hate to see preference given to people who opt for illegal entry anyway.

You think the amount of illegal immigrants we get now is a drop in the ocean compared to other countries.

I think the amount of illegal immigrants we get now is a drop in the ocean to what we'd get as soon as the Govt condoned what they are doing.

 

[Walster]

So illegal imigrants......NO
Genuine refugees........YES

Walster you said I have a blinkered view on illegal immigrants then gave your opinions on completely different matters.

No I stated that there is a big difference between imigrants and refugees

After some romantic postings about moral and ethical duties you actually posted you are anti illegal immigrants yourself.

Correct

I wasn't talking about future planning to help with the problem....I was talking about people arriving illegally at the moment.

I, like many others, would love to see some solution through proper channels but that wasn't what I was talking about when you critisised my opinion, and you certainly didn't offer any solutions to it into the bargain.

I offered Sweedens model for refugees

It's the same as the rent a crowd saying we have plenty of room so we shopuld let them all in. Simple solution, but neither practical nor logical.

Again are we talking about illegal imigrants or refugees. I think your "rent-a-acrowd" would have been talking about refugees and that you are having problems differentiating between them.

At the moment the country isn't geared to cope with illegal immigrants properly so I see no sense in giving them the Govt's blessing. I'd hate to see preference given to people who opt for illegal entry anyway.

Once again I agree about illegal imigration

You think the amount of illegal immigrants we get now is a drop in the ocean compared to other countries.

I never said that I said the amount of refugees we get is a drop in the ocean

I think the amount of illegal immigrants we get now is a drop in the ocean to what we'd get as soon as the Govt condoned what they are doing.

Once again I have no dispute when you use the term illegal immigrant

 

[Rosy]

It's all playing with words Walster.

I don't care if you call them refugees, illegal immigrants, stowaways, boat people.

Illegal immigrants can have equally desperate reasons to come here as refugees can.

There's not a lot of doubt their situation must be pretty ordinary for them to risk their life coming to Australia in the appauling conditions some must suffer in the boats.

It still doesn't alter my opinion that things have to be planned for the future though, rather than to just condone illegal arrival by anyone.

 

[CanbTiger]

I’m right behind you, rosy3, with the sentiments about “died-in the wool”/ “blue ribbon voters. How someone can abrogate their democratic rights and become the proverbial pollies’ b!tch by voting for the same party is beyond me  :

Walster:
A girl I know did her honours on the possibility of Australia adopting the Swedish model in its treatment of refugees. Ultimately, she found the model unlikely to succeed in Australia given jurisdictional differences.

In particular, Sweden has an identity card (or similar) that limits the capacity of asylum seekers to abscond. Without such a card, asylum seekers in Australia could abscond more easily.  

An Afghan asylum seeker whose talk I attended last year argued asylum seekers would be unlikely to abscond. Apparently, they're so keen to be accepted in Australia they would comply with the law rather than take actions that jeopardize their claim.

Personally, I wasn't convinced but I know people that work in this area (so would have greater knowledge) that are strong advocates of a “parole-like” system.

MY VIEW
For mine, there are certain countries in this world experiencing war-like conditions and any person fleeing that country should be treated exactly as we treated the boat people from Vietnam.  Iraq (which recently registered its 500th US soldier casualty and far higher civilian death) is a war-zone. Palestine is a war zone (don’t our news services tell us that??!!). Afghanistan is a war zone.  

Isn’t it time that people fleeing such areas were treated in a manner reminiscent of the treatment reserved for people fleeing war-zones in the past?

 

[alleycat]

there are assylum seekers and illeagal immigrants, huge differance the illeagle imigrants play for collingwood and the asylam seekers play for us