Retire / Trade / Delist | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Retire / Trade / Delist

I'm just ribbing you Carts. You're a passionate poster with an analytical approach.

I welcome the posts.

And I've never written us off any season, not in my heart.

But the writing was on the wall early this season, that we are not the Richmond of our greatest ever Dynasty.
 
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Caddy & Aarts have another year on their contract unfortunately
Add Cotch and Jack too most likely unwise extensions. The more you look at it closely, the more you see the hubris. Our decline lies there, like most/all dynasties in an unwillingness to examine the playing list stringently. We became enticed into complacency and deluded decisions by our great success. Unwilling to face reality and make the really tough decisions. The deficiencies and decline have been quite apparent to the critical eye.

Sentimentality is fine in movies (for some people if that's your bag); not in the ruthless real world of AFL.
 
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Cotchin stays but plays HBF. Should stay and help groom the next captain like Newman did for him.

Given the age demographic of the list we’re in that dangerous middle ground where we could either trade our picks to push for a 2022 premiership or look to the longer term and build for a premiership in say 5-7 years time. We’re really lacking star power in that 24-27 age group with only a sprinkling around the 21-23 age group. I for one hope we look to the longer term and go hard at the draft and move on some players in that best 15-25 group.
 
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Meh about Markov. He's a nothing player. Done nothing at GC. Another like Butler who will just keep getting games at their respective clubs for not much gain. Yeah Butler had a half decent year last year but went missing in the final and still hasn't resurfaced.
Disagree and I think my claims stand up under examination. Compare our 3-time flag champion to Markov in this season below. Bachar is/has been an all-time great but now at 33 well past his best. One argument I raised for keeping Oleg is that he was just coming into his prime at 25 with his best to come. Only got to play 23 games with us and now at 39 with GCS after 16 this year - hasn't missed one so form is standing up. Can only get better post 50 games.

Not surprisingly, Houli appears to edge him e.g. Ds 22.9/17.6. But then look again and you see that BH wins on turnovers too 5.2/2.9. Brings Disposals diff back to ~3 in round figures. Otherwise reasonably comparable, allowing for the vast gap in experience, ... when you consider BH gets 2% more ToG. Note also who wins on CPs, and marks. Notice the diff in HBs. Is that because BH is having to give it off more to avoid getting caught, or running by other players for the dish off, easy D. I see that he is off-loading the ball more to other players under pressure like himself, putting them in the gun. Meanwhile Markov still has that great pace to break the lines and clear out into space. You don't think we could use that now?

Overall you are welcome to keep backing the 33 year old; I'll take the future with the 25 year old just approaching his prime. Any astute footy judge can spot Bachar is on the decline as I predicted last year.

 
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We need to go deep into this draft; particularly on mids. I'm not convinced by our young mids at all. Yes it's early days but none of them seem to have a real dynamic edge to their games. They all seem a bit pedestrian. RCD is terrible defensively and hasn't yet developed an AFL work rate; maybe he nevre will. Dow doesn't get enough of the pill. Ross is a shadow of the player he was in his debut season.

We need to use our two first rounders on the best mids available. We haven't had access to the pointy end of the draft for a long time and it's starting to show with our recent draftees.
Or trade for Tarranto or Geen.
You get an under 23 mid ready.

*Im scared we won't/Can't draft well enough to find quality past pick 5.
 
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Retire:

Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Bachar Houli

Trade:

Jack Graham

Delist / Walk:

Jake Aarts
Kamdyn McIntosh
Mabior Chol
Jason Castagna
Jack Ross

Potential ND Picks if we finish 14th and trade the two I've listed:

5, 14, 23, 29, 30, 34, 35
Add D. Rioli for trade.
Keep Macca.
 
I'm just ribbing you Carts. You're a passionate poster with an analytical approach.

I welcome the posts.

And I've never written us off any season, not in my heart.

But the writing was on the wall early this season, that we are not the Richmond of our greatest ever Dynasty.

All fun and games, Burger. It’s just a forum and I do like to stir the pot. Appreciate your contribution also.
 
Yep, if we had Markov we would still be premiership favourites.

I doubt we will push our 2x premiership wingman out. Maybe if someone offers him more than we are willing to pay he might walk, but otherwise he will stay. particularly considering his age, and the age of our list.

we have 6 30+ on our list and all will go around again if they want to.
 
Cotchin to a halfback flank? Worst move since Rioli to the backline or Caddy to the wing. Cotchy cannot compete in the air. Midfielder or bust.
 
I think Cotch could be a chance to retire at years end, despite having another year to go on his contract.
In his early twenties, he stated publicly that he'd be happy to go out in his late twenties if he could snag a flag by then.
Well, that premiership box has been triple ticked.
His willingness to sacrifice his game, and his now banged-up body, for the team has been outstanding.
But his selfless bash and crash game style and being the extractor for others is also because he is untrustworthy by foot.
With the stand rule diluting our one wood pressure game and increasing the premium on kicking skills, he has been clearly exposed this year.
I can't see Cotchin playing in the backline due to his kicking inefficiency, and he doesn't really have the wheels for a pressure forward, or the accuracy.
Based on his performances this year, I think his time is up and I hope he reads the tea-leaves and goes out while there's still a little juice left.

With the benefit of hindsight, Houli should have retired at the end of last year, and Markov kept.
Markov's kicking is suss but he is a superb aerobic athlete, and being in his mid-twenties, in the right demographic.
A two year contract extension in the hope that Ralph-Smith and/or Cumberland could eventually go past him would have been the go.

We are being smashed out of the centre and on exposed form our Next Gen mids are only average imho.
Jack Ross is one dimensional, has no left foot, and is slow. He is not the answer.
RCD is not a natural footballer and we risk investing years in him for only modest return.
Naish is a nice kick but slow for a wingman and does not relish the contest.
The above three are unlikely to make it in a top side imo and Hartley should be planning to upgrade all.
Haven't seen enough of Dow at AFL level yet, but once again his kicking is a worry. Martyn still basically an unknown.
Of our established midfield stars, Prestia and Lambert (along with Cotchin) are now officially injury prone older players.
Stocking up on quality mids is our most pressing need and thank goodness we have 6 picks in the first three rounds this year.

In the forward line, Castagna and Aarts are role playing battlers that could work in our manic pressure game.
But again, with the Stand Rule opening up play and increasing the premium on (kicking) skills, their deficiencies are more obvious and costly.
At least one position needs to be upgraded with skill so I would be blooding Maurice junior this year.

In the backline, Dave Astbury has been a loyal servant and hopefully can stay on the park for 1-2 more years, but his football body is obviously aging.
Ben Miller and Gathy might stay but only because we are so lacking in credible alternatives. Nyuon - who knows?
Pretty obvious we need to recruit or draft a quality key backman.

Caddy's papers have obviously been stamped, and Egg won't get another chance next year, while Matthew Parker's selection already looks questionable imo.
With the benefit of hindsight, Parker was a top up for a side looking to challenge in September, which we clearly no longer are.
He is an average kick and that's my main problem with him - as we already have way too many ball butchers.

Young kids worth persisting with: CCJ, Ralph-Smith, Maurice Rioli junior, Noah Cumberland, Will Martyn. And of course Stacky.
The point is - there's not that many in the 2's.

In short, we should go for a major major list overhaul at years end.
I completely understand why we positioned at the start of this year for another tilt.
However, subsequent to finalising our 2020 List Management , HO brought in the Stand Rule, which has changed the game.
And then in 2021, we have been decimated by injuries to a far greater extent than any other side.
But it needs to be recognised that many of those old man injuries aren't going to magically reverse.
They are the result of tired old battered bodies holding up the white flag.
When the tide turns, it can recede real quick.
In my view, if you're not challenging, you're rebuilding.
No point just hoping things will improve - time for strong List Management action.
 
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reckon our greatest ever captain will retire.
 
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reckon our greatest ever captain will retire.
Equal greatest please. You cannot leave the all-time great Jack Dyer out on a basis of flags won or whatever. Jack is an absolute legend from the ferocious deeds, and incredibly tough era, he inspired RFC club and fans throughout.
 
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Agree with much of what 17 has said

Like some of us I expected the slide to begin next year. However, the danger signs have been there for some time with the increasing inability of many key players to get on the park regularly. This includes Prestia Lambert and Nank as well as the legendary over 30 year olds.
I have some sympathy for the notion that club legends like Houli, Cotch and JR in particular should be able to make their own decisions re retirement. However if in 2022 we continue to play as we are at present and they play on, that sympathy will evaporate particularly if their form remains the same (likely) and the club is reluctant to drop them to finish their careers in the VFL.

There are some hard decisions need to be made by the club for the future. As a person whose first grand final was 1969 and like many lived thru the late 80s, 90s never expecting another grand final will always treasure the last 4 years. Lets hope the club makes the right decisions moving forward.
 
Cotchin to a halfback flank? Worst move since Rioli to the backline or Caddy to the wing. Cotchy cannot compete in the air. Midfielder or bust.
hopefully if Cotchin moves to the HBF it can be as bad a move as Caddy being a premiership wingman. Cotchin couldnt be much worse than Short or Houli in the air, could he?
 
Young kids worth persisting with: CCJ, Ralph-Smith, Maurice Rioli junior, Noah Cumberland, Will Martyn. And of course Stacky.
The point is - there's not that many in the 2's.
There arent many kids in the twos because we have an injury list of 11, most of them real quality. So are kids are playing in the ones, roving to a 3rd choice ruckman, playing alongside other kids, and our role players.

there is a fair chance many of them would better playing alongside Lambert and Prestia rather than Aarts and Castagna, or down back next to Broad and Vlastuin, rather than Garthwaite.
 
Yep, if we had Markov we would still be premiership favourites.

I doubt we will push our 2x premiership wingman out. Maybe if someone offers him more than we are willing to pay he might walk, but otherwise he will stay. particularly considering his age, and the age of our list.

we have 6 30+ on our list and all will go around again if they want to.
In response to your points:
1) Who is actually claiming this? Just utter nonsense. It's whether the club had more future in investing in OM for a HBF or utility and phasing BH out (a decision that injury may make for us, but Markov's gone)
2) Who is 'him' actually? No-one can be sure who you're referring to
3) If that's the case, hope you keep on enjoying similar results to last 4 weeks

Sure injuries have put paid to the dynasty, but issues of age, form, loss of speed and durability, recovery/recuperation/ongoing physical performance questions, declining decision-making and skills, probably won't go away with these guys who have got battered and scarred over their remarkable performances over 17-21.

All great things come to an end. We might well need to take a step back to go forward again starting in 2023/24.
 
Agree with a lot being said.

Writing on the wall very early. Since Rd3 you could argue.
Look at the recent wins.
Managed to win with the odd good quarter or maybe a half.

Gws (Hogan FFS!) had us on toast in 1st half.
Crows nearly 5 goals up 1st q. (spare seat Texas)
Essendoom put on 4 in the last q to take lead while we were still in the 3/4 time huddle.
Yes we smashed them after that but we have not put 4 quarters together in a match all year.
Even the Aints smashing (ours not theirs) they led at quarter time and missed some absolute sodas from right in front.
Only late we started to pile on the pain.
Just haven't had a consistent showing all year.
Then you throw in the injuries.
Was a case of 2/3 good ones in 2/3 good ones out every single *smile* week.
Then you throw in the beautiful whistle blowing corruption, scandal, cheating, city hall abuse by Gilquarters and his yes men.
The stand rule.
It is actually amazing we are only falling away now.
We have been up against it from the get go.
Can't continue with Pickett as a Ruckman and expect to win.
The funny thing is we are still in it.
But would need a massive form reversal and soldiers to start returning to be able to compete, contend, challenge.
Unfortunately stick a fork in us.
I just hope Cats, Dees, or Doggies don't win the cup.
And Aints finish 9th!
And that Tom A Flog gets pushed into a team mate and falls down in a heap like Ivan's cousin Ivan.

End of.