Tactics 2019 | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Tactics 2019

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,303
863
fairly obvious that Collingwood beat us at our own game. not only that, they showed an ability to win contested ball and smash us in clearances. so we go back to the drawing board and tweak. the coaching staff will be loathe to change things too much. they will be loathe to jettison the pressure game, the fundamental defensive skills our players have learned.

and they would be right. except for one glaring issue that I can see. tom lynch will come in - there's little doubt about that. so in theory there's ruck assistance for Nank. that will help immeasurably. but the pressure, turnover game is centred on speedy mids and forwards who can apply it. tom lynch is no slouch at ground level but he will not be applying pressure once the ball hits the deck. already we are a mosquito down.

further, if we choose to draft in a ceglar-type second ruck we are two mossies down. if we draft brad crouch we are bolstering contested ball but potentially demoting a KMac type, losing defensive speed and further eroding our pressure game.

at what point does our newly drafted personnel render the turnover game plan impotent? after all, you need at least fourteen diligent, agile, disciplined, speedy, grunty, defensive maniacs to form that grid and hassle the bejesus out of the oppo ball carrier and block short exits.

we will need to beat collingwood next year. if we fix the areas we need to in order to beat them when it counts, the turnover game, and by extension our pressure rating, will fall.

I reckon we'll still roll out the defence-first mantra that upsets most sides. but the pure turnover game is pretty much done. we still have the best defensive six in the land and they won't get separated like they did on friday night again. we will have mechanisms in place to ensure cluster spoils and safe handball receives. but in the midfield, we will strive to be first to the ball much, much more often. again, brad couch could be the catalyst here. with crouch (or someone like him) mucking in, cotch can become the second link that kicks quickly. he does this so well and I'd prefer him clearing the ball as opposed to smashing his body against brick walls.

which brings us to the forward line, and the most tantalising question of all - what to do with Jack. I would play Lynch and Cads deep as Batman and Robin. I would have Jack on the attacking side of the square and barging in for the quick release. he can either give and go or tap it on to a surging midfield. have him roam the centre square. wheel and go, that's what he does so well. I'd play rioli on a forward flank so he can wax with Jack. Castagna, Bolton, Snags, Martin, Butler plaaying at Lynch and Caddy's feet.

whilst we'll still pressure like we always do, I reckon we'll set up from half back more. now that we have lynch and the ability to play jack high, our spine will be much more defined. in fact, having jack roam has massive implications for nank, who can now drop back behind the play more often to contest the oppo entry. with jack high and nank back, we can absorb the loss of pressure the new personnel will trigger. with a much stronger spine and strong spread across the ground, expect more coast-to-coast and the likes of Houli and Short to be absolutely vital with their long kicking.

we will return in 2019 with more weapons than we had in 2018. we will look to play a +1 down back more often. we will look to at least break even in clearances. for the first time in years, we will have a much better chance of controlling the airball and playing a longer game. don't be surprised if we play more of a first to the ball, high press style, similar to 2013. good luck kicking winning scores against our back seven plus Nank. adding lynch and playing jack high might just be a premiership recipe.
 

BrisTiger24

Out: Chimp In: Camel
Oct 16, 2003
15,237
7,426
Brisbane
I think we need to have a 'win clearance' and a 'concede dirty clearance' gameplan that we can alternate based on opposition or even based on circumstances within games. If we are losing momentum the way we did the in the PF we need to flick to a clearance focused, one-on-one gameplan to arrest the momentum and swing it back our way. We also need to accept that our "system" will fall down against some opposition and, if moving to that one-on-one gameplan, ensure we are locking down most tightly on the opposition players that are driving their momentum...e.g. Sidebottom in the PF. For this we need a tagger. Graham can do it, Grigg has done it in the past. I don't like Cotch doing it as we give up too much in attack.

Could we use Grimes as a tagger (does he have the tank to do it?)

I also think we need to achieve a better balance between forward 50 defence and attacking capability. It shouldn't be enough for George and the like to rely solely on pressure and tackling if they are no attacking threat. We need more capability in the air (Lynch will help that) and attacking flair in our smalls.

Gameplan tweaks/flexibility and personnel tweaks should be all we need to stay in contention
 

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,303
863
good post Brissie, but are our players that flexible?

i get the feeling Hardwick likes to set a system, smash the drills required to carry out that system for six months over the summer.

i also get the feeling he doesn't like to "respond" to what the oppo are doing too often as it disrupts the drilled system.

if we drafted a second ruck or CCJ came on, there's even a possibility of transitioning to a WC style. classical, structured play with talls and smalls.

I'm sure the coaches will be watching on saturday with intense interest. if WC prevail against the hottest pressure side going around, that will be huge food for thought.
 

BrisTiger24

Out: Chimp In: Camel
Oct 16, 2003
15,237
7,426
Brisbane
Baron Samedi said:
good post Brissie, but are our players that flexible?

i get the feeling Hardwick likes to set a system, smash the drills required to carry out that system for six months over the summer.

i also get the feeling he doesn't like to "respond" to what the oppo are doing too often as it disrupts the drilled system.

if we drafted a second ruck or CCJ came on, there's even a possibility of transitioning to a WC style. classical, structured play with talls and smalls.

I'm sure the coaches will be watching on saturday with intense interest. if WC prevail against the hottest pressure side going around, that will be huge food for thought.

Live by the sword, die by the sword....unfortunately we got slaughtered by the sword last Friday
 

Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
24,572
12,144
We need to listen to the collingwood song blind folded at a pre season camp
 

BrisTiger24

Out: Chimp In: Camel
Oct 16, 2003
15,237
7,426
Brisbane
Harry said:
We need to listen to the collingwood song blind folded at a pre season camp

At least our song is a decent one to listen to. Making people listen to their garbage is Guantanamo Bay stuff.
 

daniel30

Tiger Superstar
Jun 14, 2010
2,450
3,029
Focus on contested possession and winning clearances number one priority we a ranked 18th worse then the bottom sides and it showed how important it is last Friday this puts alot of pressure on our defence and the river breaks eventually .Hear this BS tigers don't mind conceding them that's crap for me we just can't win them and puzzling with our midfield to.Need inside midfielders.
 

St Kevin

Tiger Legend
Apr 1, 2014
7,211
6,222
Two main things imo:

1. We need another tall forward. The club knows this and is attempting to rectify it with Lynch. Big tick. I think having Butler and Rioli play together will also help our forward pressure. We forget that the three amigos barely played together this season. Caddy improved this year. Riewoldt will win the BnF imo. Our forward line has gone from makeshift to a real strength in the space of two years.

2. Our midfield setups. This is in my opinion probably a bigger issue. Particularly clearances. While we appeared to 'concede' this and still finished first on the ladder, it's been found out against better teams. Particularly better teams that can control the ball on the flanks and wings (see Sidebottom's performance in the prelim and the Eagles game in Perth). I'm mindful of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I don't think it's sustainable to just expect our backline to mop up and launch from defence. I wouldn't be adverse to trading our first pick to get some more ready made inside grunt to free up Cotchin and Martin to be a little more outside.

Having said that, definitely no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We finished first this year and lost 4 games all year. We just had a bit of a perfect storm against Collingwood, coupled with 4 or 5 blokes being clearly not fit. It's shocking timing to happen in a prelim, but it happens. We played our worst game in over a year.

We did a hell of a lot right this season, some minor tweaks to the two things noted should see us contend again next year.
 

TigerForce

Tiger Legend
Apr 26, 2004
71,146
22,077
57
Harry said:
We need to listen to the collingwood song blind folded at a pre season camp
:hihi


Agree with all comments. We just need to slow down a bit on the frenzy passes.
 

Tommy H

Tiger Champion
Apr 5, 2014
2,573
23
The main thing I think we need to change is bloody contested ball. It really *smile* me. Let's get in and win the first ball and run from there.
 

BrisTiger24

Out: Chimp In: Camel
Oct 16, 2003
15,237
7,426
Brisbane
daniel30 said:
Focus on contested possession and winning clearances number one priority we a ranked 18th worse then the bottom sides and it showed how important it is last Friday this puts alot of pressure on our defence and the river breaks eventually .Hear this BS tigers don't mind conceding them that's crap for me we just can't win them and puzzling with our midfield to.Need inside midfielders.

But we were AFL top few for centre clearances. I dont doubt that we choose not to win around the ground clearances, I just think it's a risky strategy where your pressure drops off around the contest
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,048
21,633
BrisTiger24 said:
But we were AFL top few for centre clearances. I dont doubt that we choose not to win around the ground clearances, I just think it's a risky strategy where your pressure drops off around the contest

Not if you look at differential at that's really what matters. We need to ensure that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We conceded 10 goals against Collingwood on Friday which I reckon we could play them another 20 times and not do the same thing. We had a bad day at the office but if someone comes up that's available to help us out in areas we are not great in like clearances then we need to go for it. We have a massive reliance on Dusty at centre clearances, most other teams have multiple players that can roll through there and impact, we generally have Dusty, Cotch, Prestia and daylight as we have a lot of receivers.
 

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,303
863
A challenge to all those who think we just need a little tweak and she'll be right:

If Lynch (the tall we need) comes in, who goes out? Castagna?

If Crouch (the hunter we need) comes in, who goes out? Conca?

If a second ruck comes in (to help with clearances), who goes out? Grigg?

That's there pressure players (Grigg mainly because he's a +1 mid where the oppo usually played an extra tall) gone.

How does the pressure rating drop? Is it still possible? You need complete buy-in from a critical mass of players.

I'd argue we need to push forward with a new plan. Stay ahead of the curve. With the advent of 6-6-6, use height in every zone. Kick long. By all means pressure like crazy but with more strings to our bow. Concede more D50s. Win more clearances. Hunt the ball then use it dangerously to talls on the lead. Use Nank as a defensive marking option.

Where does ruck #2 fit in? Does he rest up forward with Lynch and a high-roaming Jack? Where's Caddy? That isn't a fast forward line.

People aren't thinking straight when they expect more of the same pressure but advocate for contested ball improvement, forward talls and ruck support. It just ain't gonna happen that way. Remember that Collingwood are playing our game better than us. they also need a critical mass of smalls. they only have grundy and cox for height.

we are heading toward a new game plan at light speed and folks need to accept it. cara and hardwick are across it. exciting times.
 

clown

Tiger Superstar
Mar 16, 2004
1,949
185
Look how much West Coast and in particular Collingwood improved this year if we can improve as much as them next year we might be a chance
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,048
21,633
Baron Samedi said:
A challenge to all those who think we just need a little tweak and she'll be right:

If Lynch (the tall we need) comes in, who goes out? Castagna?

If Crouch (the hunter we need) comes in, who goes out? Conca?

If a second ruck comes in (to help with clearances), who goes out? Grigg?

That's there pressure players (Grigg mainly because he's a +1 mid where the oppo usually played an extra tall) gone.

How does the pressure rating drop? Is it still possible? You need complete buy-in from a critical mass of players.

I'd argue we need to push forward with a new plan. Stay ahead of the curve. With the advent of 6-6-6, use height in every zone. Kick long. By all means pressure like crazy but with more strings to our bow. Concede more D50s. Win more clearances. Hunt the ball then use it dangerously to talls on the lead. Use Nank as a defensive marking option.

Where does ruck #2 fit in? Does he rest up forward with Lynch and a high-roaming Jack? Where's Caddy? That isn't a fast forward line.

People aren't thinking straight when they expect more of the same pressure but advocate for contested ball improvement, forward talls and ruck support. It just ain't gonna happen that way. Remember that Collingwood are playing our game better than us. they also need a critical mass of smalls. they only have grundy and cox for height.

we are heading toward a new game plan at light speed and folks need to accept it. cara and hardwick are across it. exciting times.

Zero chance we bring in Lynch and a 2nd ruck. You seem intent on destroying everything whats been created in the last 2 years. Remember we've won 37 games out of 49 in the last 2 years. We've got a bit away from our gameplay of 2017 a bit, for me I'd take 1 of Houli or Short out for Lynch and Conca out for Crouch if we get him.

You are forgetting Mihocek in the Pies forward line. They play our forward setup without as much forward pressure, they pressure around the ball but not in their forward line. Many seem to think they've directly copied us, they play similar but pressure in different ways.

We conceded 10 goals from stoppages on Friday, that just doesn't happen unless you are in the bottom 4, we need to tweak the gameplan not radicalise it.
 

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,303
863
mrposhman said:
Zero chance we bring in Lynch and a 2nd ruck. You seem intent on destroying everything whats been created in the last 2 years. Remember we've won 37 games out of 49 in the last 2 years. We've got a bit away from our gameplay of 2017 a bit, for me I'd take 1 of Houli or Short out for Lynch and Conca out for Crouch if we get him.

You are forgetting Mihocek in the Pies forward line. They play our forward setup without as much forward pressure, they pressure around the ball but not in their forward line. Many seem to think they've directly copied us, they play similar but pressure in different ways.

We conceded 10 goals from stoppages on Friday, that just doesn't happen unless you are in the bottom 4, we need to tweak the gameplan not radicalise it.

Mihocek is not huge by today's standards (192cm) and Cads pretty much plays tall. the point remains.

no one is tearing down anything, Posh. I'm simply pointing out that we can't rely solely on turnover anymore and I don't think we will be bringing in the cattle for that style anyway.

the harder we try to fix clearances and F50 contested marks the harder it will be to replicate the insane pressure rating of 2017-18. just the way list profiles work.
 
B

Bill James

Guest
It needs tweaking because we have been worked out.

At the start of the year we got a goal for every 4 times inside 50, at the end of the year it was out to 1 in 6. Teams worked out how to defend our pressure. Adding Lynch and dropping back to two pressure smalls will tweak this one.


At the start of the year our backs were taking 5 or 6 contested marks per game by the end of the year it was down to 2 or 3. Teams worked out how to avoid our intercepts. Personally I think we need to lose one of Broad or Astbury for a mobile medium defender who can mark. We have Vlaus who is not mobile and Houli/Ellis/Short who can't mark. Markov or maybe even Moore or Balta could come through.

The second ruck is an issue IMHO. Grundy just belted the ball 25m when Grigg was in the ruck, everyone was watching, everyone will do that next year. I think that game is over. We will need to play someone who can stop that next year, whether its a Balta or Lynch I don't know, but goals from stoppages will become a bigger problem if we keep using a midfielder in the ruck.

I thought Collingwood defended our foward handball game really well on Friday. Thats the first time I have seen that done this year. Buckly placed a backstop out the back and instead of handballing our mids into space we were handballing them into pressure. That was seriously clever and will require some thought to counteract it next year.


Thats why I am tipping WC. They have a completely different game to Richmond. A tall foward line. An accountable not zone back line. Two tall rucks. Lowest handball to kick ratio going around. All the things Coll was good at shutting down WC don't do. It its dry I just can't see Collingwood getting close.
 

funky

Tiger Superstar
Nov 27, 2009
1,552
2
daniel30 said:
Focus on contested possession and winning clearances number one priority we a ranked 18th worse then the bottom sides and it showed how important it is last Friday this puts alot of pressure on our defence and the river breaks eventually .Hear this BS tigers don't mind conceding them that's crap for me we just can't win them and puzzling with our midfield to.Need inside midfielders.
this.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,048
21,633
Baron Samedi said:
Mihocek is not huge by today's standards (192cm) and Cads pretty much plays tall. the point remains.

no one is tearing down anything, Posh. I'm simply pointing out that we can't rely solely on turnover anymore and I don't think we will be bringing in the cattle for that style anyway.

the harder we try to fix clearances and F50 contested marks the harder it will be to replicate the insane pressure rating of 2017-18. just the way list profiles work.

Yes and no but my belief is our personnel doesn't look like its changed that much, but its changed from the 2017 style just enough to impact on our F50 entries, we've seen that mainly in the 2nd half of the year.

Out from the GF team have been Ellis, Townsend and Butler
In have come Higgins, Conca and Short

That's a significant change in structure for me especially for our forward line. Not only have we lost that taller target (and Towner isn't tall, but he played tall by manning one of the oppositions intercept markers, we've missed that). Losing Butler has also robbed us of some of our forward pressure. Higgins has been playing midfield, Conca midfield / HB and Short HB, so we've moved more personnel in that are more defensively minded and I don't think its worked.

For me we will look to get a similar structure to our GF team back but better in our F50. I do think we will look to address the contested ball numbers but that doesn't have to be at the loss of pressure. The notion that we will swing from a 2 tall forward / ruck strategy to 4 is nothing other than kneejerk and is not going to happen. Its as simple as that so not point even contemplating that. I can understand questioning Nank against taller rucks, but we won't be playing 2 of them plus Jack and Lynch.

I also feel like we have gone too uncontested across halfback, for me its Short or Houli not both. Whatever Brando's issues, he's a lot more contested in terms of how he impacts players than either of these 2 and if we aren't going to play him back there, I'd think we'd be better rotating some of our 1st receiver mids (rather than contested mids) back there when those players go for their interchange, players like Lambert, Kmac even Rioli can do that, even Cotch could do it too.

I think our aim will be to move back to the 3 amigos in the forward line again being George, Butler and Rioli, I'd love Bolton to put some pressure on them but think we'll go back to that. I love Higgins but he's a different type of player.

For me forward structure going into 2019 should be

FF - Lynch
CHF - Jack
3rd tall - Caddy
3 smalls - Rioli, George and Butler
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,048
21,633
Bill James said:
The second ruck is an issue IMHO. Grundy just belted the ball 25m when Grigg was in the ruck, everyone was watching, everyone will do that next year. I think that game is over. We will need to play someone who can stop that next year, whether its a Balta or Lynch I don't know, but goals from stoppages will become a bigger problem if we keep using a midfielder in the ruck.

I thought Collingwood defended our foward handball game really well on Friday. Thats the first time I have seen that done this year. Buckly placed a backstop out the back and instead of handballing our mids into space we were handballing them into pressure. That was seriously clever and will require some thought to counteract it next year.

You've kind of answered the question I think without maybe realising it.

We have 2 choices with the ruck, completely change our ruck setup so that it detrimentally impacts us elsewhere, or we change our defensive structures at stoppages. In a similar way to Collingwood manning the space (the backstop) why wouldn't we do this, the opposition ruck can punch the ball forward all they like if we defend it to gain possessions. As you said we hadn't seen anyone do that before so its hard to counter within that game, but we now have the off season to prepare the contingency plans for this.

I suspect we are more likely to go down this route rather than either dump Nank or bringing in a 4th tall forward / ruck.