Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

YinnarTiger said:
Thanks. Keating beat him on that one by promising not to oppose the GST if Hewson won.

Beazley didn't learn from that and promised to block Howard's GST. People voted Howard in on the basis that they thought the Democrats and Labor would combine in the senate to block it. Democrats' decision to back out of that was the beginning of the end for them.

I understand that a number of people believe that lead to the demise of the democrats Yinnar but personally I think the opposite is true. The reason the democrats attracted a following in the senate from their formation was their mantra of "Keep the Bastards Honest". Basically they encouraged people to vote for them in the senate so they could ensure that a government passed policy that they took to the previous election (within reason). In relation to the GST that was a clearly a policy the Howard government took to the election and so when a section of the democrats (lead by Stott-Despoya) opposed a policy that the government had taken to an election it made people realise that at least some democrats were no longer true to that mantra. In fact it appeared that this group of democrats had the mantra we will "keep the bastards honest but only if we disagree with them". I think there are plenty of examples where political parties lose the faith of their core voters and this was just one of them.

In my opinion this meant that there was no longer any reason to vote democrat and so people reverted to voting for either their major party of choice or another minor party. This was a real pity as i think the democrats served a very useful purpose in being a centralist party that had the aim of keeping both major parties honest. There is no real replacement in the modern parliament.

Peaka
 
I'm surprised at how long it has taken a lot of people to catch on to his ineptness. What a disgrace of a leader of our great country.
 
Baloo said:
Anyone else surprised at how quickly the party and media have turned on Tone ? The Prince Philip affair really opened the flood gates in a big big way

Not surprised at all wrt to the media. There is nothing the media loves more than blood, be it a PM's or a head coach's.
 
YinnarTiger said:
Thanks. Keating beat him on that one by promising not to oppose the GST if Hewson won.

Beazley didn't learn from that and promised to block Howard's GST. People voted Howard in on the basis that they thought the Democrats and Labor would combine in the senate to block it. Democrats' decision to back out of that was the beginning of the end for them.

I can only assume Beazley was good leader in the party room. A machine man, a product of the system because outwardly he was useless. That he remained leader for so long while being Howard's chump should have had alarm bells ringing inside the ALP. I don't see any signs they've learned the lesson yet. The machine is busted. On both sides. But the conservatives can work with a busted machine because their ability to adhere to an ideology is stronger. The party that adjusts to the changes in society, the reduction in religious belief, the immediacy of social media, the idea that people are more interested in individual policies than political ideologies (indivotes) will have the greater success. IMO.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
That he remained leader for so long while being Howard's chump should have had alarm bells ringing inside the ALP.

And yet he won the majority of the popular vote at the 1998 election.

"In the October 1998 election, Labor polled a majority of the two-party vote and received the largest swing to a first-term opposition since 1934. However, due to the uneven nature of the swing, as well as the Coalition's large majority going into the election, Labor came up eight seats short of making Beazley Prime Minister. Beazley did, however, manage to slash Howard's majority by more than half, from 45 seats to 13."

The 2001 election was a different story - Howard exploited the Tampa issue and Labor lost - but only lost an additional two seats. Beazley was hardly a chump.

Then we had the new dawn of Kevin 07 :hihi
 
Looks like Abbott won't survive until the next election:

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/time-running-out-for-damaged-pm/story-fnahw9xv-1227208245189
 
That's a subscriber only article that many won't be able to read Ian. Can you please tell us the gist of it.
 
245163-a91be07a-ac3e-11e4-884c-4d3ab9bafe58.jpg

TONY Abbott’s rule is over. It is effectively dead and what we are witnessing are the death throes. If it’s not formally killed off by backbenchers next week, or soon after, and work is proceeding to make it happen, then the voters will do the job for them at the election.

No government today, given the fickleness and impatience of voters, can survive a civil war of the kind we have seen during the past few weeks unless it is brilliant and, despite a few notable exceptions, with some important achievements, the Abbott government falls well short of that.

Numbers are being counted. Malcolm Turnbull is said to be close. Supporters are refining their pitch, and to succeed Turnbull will have to make sure he lives up to it: there will be no emissions trading scheme unless the rest of the world moves; he will be more consultative; there will be no revenge.

However, good performers will be rewarded, the poor ones will go and he will govern from the centre. The last is important because of the antipathy from the Nationals and the Right to Turnbull.

Julie Bishop is fighting to remain deputy — a sensible position on her part — and Scott Morrison will almost certainly become treasurer. Joe Hockey can survive only if Abbott does.

Abbott is cage fighting, desperate to buy time, threatening blood and guts if attempts are made to remove him, but his arguments as well as those of his public defenders, who act out of duty or self-interest, sound hollow.

If Abbott tries to do to his successor what Kevin Rudd did to his, then he will leave the same sorry legacy.

More likely, he will be dead man repenting, rather than dead man stalking.

Abbott says he was elected to end the chaos; Christopher Pyne says it was to provide serious government with a serious leader. Here’s the problem: Abbott institutionalised chaos, then rendered himself ridiculous.

No serious leader publicly calls his MPs sexist because they dared criticise his chief of staff whom they reckoned was trying to bully, intimidate or ostracise them and their staff; no serious leader repeatedly ignores their existence while indulging in policy frolics that he then has to reverse; no serious leader humiliates them by awarding a knighthood to a prince; no serious leader out­sources his job or cedes his power to an unelected staff member, then spits in the eye of those who try to tell him it is wrong and will be his undoing; no serious leader would tolerate senior staff briefing against colleagues, as happened with Arthur Sinodinos and others.

Finally, no serious leader tells his MPs they have no right to remove him because that right belongs to the people, slipping seamlessly from champion of all things Westminster to directly elected republican president, provocatively waving a red rag under the noses of his backbenchers, ­ensuring that if he remains — a big IF — the next election will be a referendum on him, not his achievements.

As one NSW Liberal MP put it: “You have to remember we have not been living with this for 18 months but for five years.”

There has been a complete breakdown of trust inside the government, from top to bottom, which makes for a highly volatile situation.

Old enmities have surfaced but after it’s over, if there is to be any hope of recovery, they will have to be buried.

Complaints by Abbott’s supporters that Bishop was not effusive enough in her support of him transformed into a leak to Sky News that Abbott had asked her on Sunday for an assurance that she would not challenge, which she refused to give.

Abbott got out early to climb the high moral ground, dismissing it as so much insider gossip, while his cabinet ministers piled on, overlooking his shabby treatment of her, including that when Bishop last year conveyed to him the concerns of backbenchers over the operations of his office — particularly the behaviour of his chief of staff — he told her she was where she was only because of what Peta Credlin had done. That was insult on top of injury because Bishop had been forced from day one of government to fight off attempts by Credlin to dislodge her respected long-serving chief of staff, Murray Hansen.

Bishop finally declared she would not challenge after cabinet ministers made it clear her position would be untenable if she did not make such a declaration. Bishop told her supporters some time ago she has no desire to be Lady Macbeth II, but if and when Abbott goes down, she does not want to go down with him.

This has been an organic insurrection, triggered by Abbott’s own actions. When MPs are besieged by branch members, electorate officials and long-time supporters, as many of them were over the summer to tell them they had to sack Abbott, they take it seriously.

If they wait to see whether the May budget fizzles or sizzles, time to repair electoral stocks and for the new team to prove itself begins to run out. Also they run the risk of another electoral debacle, this time in NSW.

Sure Mike Baird is popular, but he is up against a much sharper opposition leader now. Plus, Labor has refined its campaign techniques in two massive by-elections, across Victoria and Queensland, which superglued state Liberals to Abbott.

Labor did the same in the weekend by-election in the South Australian state seat of Davenport that saw a sizeable swing to the decaying Labor government after every piece of its campaign material featured Abbott.

Removing a serving prime minister is no easy thing, no matter if it’s in the first term or after several. There are psychological as well as physical barriers, with the difficulties compounded by competing loyalties, the need to organise, the need for courage, the knowledge the wounds will run deep, probably for years, the fear of retribution. But Liberals have been driven to it because the situation is so bad.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/time-running-out-for-damaged-pm/story-fnahw9xv-1227208245189
 
I can't stomach Abbott just about more than any politician I can ever remember.
I so hope he becomes Half Term Tony for the rest of his days next Tuesday.
Unbelievable that this flea got into power. Shame on the Australians who voted for him.
 
http://m.smh.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/australia-accused-of-manipulating-australian-dollar-to-save-iron-ore-miners-20150204-135jzu.html#ixzz3QkJAGSmD

Australia accused of manipulating Australian dollar to save iron ore miners
Peter Ker February 04, 2015

An American iron ore miner says Australia is "manipulating" its currency in a bid to save its iron ore exporters, who are so desperate for cash they are "putting even the kangaroos for sale".

In comments made on the same day the Reserve Bank of Australia cut interest rates to a historic low, Cliffs Natural Resources chief executive Lourenco Goncalves said Australia was making a "big mistake" by assuming low iron ore prices would force Chinese iron ore producers out of business, and that it would be the Australian and Brazilian producers who would be left "bleeding".

Cliffs operates iron ore and coal mines in North America but also has the fifth biggest iron ore export business in Australia.

Its Australian iron ore business has less than five years of mine-life remaining, and the company plans to either sell the asset, or shut it when the current mine life expires.

Mr Goncalves said the situation had started to "smell bad" in Australia.

"The Australians have very little do at this time beyond continuing to manipulating their currency. Despite that we are already seeing lay-offs and mines shutting down throughout the entire Australian iron ore mining landscape," he said during a quarterly briefing in the United States on Tuesday.

"The Australians are taking no prisoners with the Aussie dollar.

"They want to help BHP, they want to help Rio Tinto, they want to help that lady over there, Gina whatever.

"They are going to continue to help Fortescue Metals Group and they will believe that they will always crush Chinese producers. Big mistake, but it is what it is."

Australian iron ore miners sell their product in US dollars but have most of their costs in Australian dollars, and so have benefited from the slide in the Australian dollar over the past year.

The Reserve Bank of Australia has been saying for more than a year that it would like to see the currency lower, and on Tuesday cut official interest rates to 2.25 per cent.

Cliffs is realigning its business to focus on selling iron ore to US steel producers rather than Chinese steel mills, and says it received $US99 per tonne for the product it sold to US mills in the December quarter. The average price for iron ore sold into China during the December quarter was $US74 per tonne.

Mr Goncalves said iron ore miners outside the US won't be able to compete with US miners for price when selling to US steel mills, and he tipped that Cliffs, which had to delay promises for dividend payments this week, would outlast the Australian and Brazilian miners.

"The Australian and the Brazilians will be bleeding like crazy in the next couple of years; we are going to be standing tall. It is already stupid betting against America," he said.

At $US1 billion, Cliffs market capitalisation is more than 100 times smaller than Rio Tinto's market capitalisation on the ASX. Rio also has a second, larger listing in London.

BHP has a larger total market capitalisation than Rio Tinto.

BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto have said they will pay dividends in February, despite the slide in commodity prices.

pffft