Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

antman said:
Good point, bizarre that MaLT and Mathias Corrman keeps telling us to vote for them as Labor will blow the budget though wouldn't you say?
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Quit changing your arguments, it's hard to keep up with you.
 
poppa x said:
My take on the Unions in the modern world..............
The relationship between workers and bosses especially in small to medium sized business, is stronger and more personal than any worker/union relationship.
These days, workers and bosses tend to be mostly on the same page, with each recognising that they are a team and one can't succeed without the other.
OTH the unions are still fighting class wars, in a society where class is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Yes - the unions won hard fought wage and conditions campaigns. But those days are well behind us. Time to move on.
Until the unions and other hard left political warriors recognise the changed world, they will continue to lose membership and becoming increasingly irrelevant.

2c.
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Don't disagree re small and medium business, that has generally been my experience too as a tradesman.

As for moving on, unions remain crucial to unskilled and semi-skilled workers in big companies. I for one recognize its a changed world, but I think its cyclic rather than a ratchet. If we get a real recession, unions will become more relevant. Probably not as relevant in terms of proportion of society membership, but more relevant. And also lets not forget, the erosion of union power has left a lot of workers worse-off. An immediate family member who worked in a big factory for years can document the downward slide. 7-11 worker exploitation was a recent example.

Unions help worker conditions, but they have negative impacts as well. That's putting aside corruption, which is horrible and happens but is beaten-up by conservatives for political gain. I'm very concerned about the environment. Unions can be right alongside the climate change deniers battling to keep polluting old coal power stations and mines running, and even agitating for new big environmentally disasterous mines like Adani in Qld. That's the core problem for the ALP, and why they should reduce union representation, they should still have some, unions are important and its part of their identity, but it should be less. (my grandfather would turn in his grave if he heard me say that). But they can't seem to be able to do it.
 
tigersnake said:
That's putting aside corruption, which is horrible and happens but is beaten-up by conservatives for political gain.
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Really ? You believe it's a beat up ?
 
Baloo said:
Quit changing your arguments, it's hard to keep up with you.
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Was he changing the argument? The LNP are constantly harping on about their economic credentials as if the government is a business and one of their arguments that used to crop up along those lines was increasing debt under Labor.
 
Baloo said:
Really ? You believe it's a beat up ?
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I really do. A lot of moderate polical observers would say the same thing. It happens, and it happens too much. But its not as systemic as the neo-libs would have you believe. Then there is the matter of corporate corruption, both legal (eg tax evasion, selling abandoned coal mines for $1 to get out of the cleanup, political donations for land-re-zonings and big contracts etc) and illegal (7-11, the litany of recent bank scandals), which is much more acceptable apparently.

I'd argue corporate corruption has a far greater negative impact on society than union corruption.
 
IanG said:
Was he changing the argument? The LNP are constantly harping on about their economic credentials as if the government is a business and one of their arguments that used to crop up along those lines was increasing debt under Labor.
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It started with knifing of PMs and now it's descended to whats being said one week out from an election. it's this entire week that should be under media ban.
 
tigersnake said:
I'd argue corporate corruption has a far greater negative impact on society than union corruption.
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That's not the argument. The argument is you think union corruption is a beat up.
 
Baloo said:
It started with knifing of PMs and now it's descended to whats being said one week out from an election. it's this entire week that should be under media ban.
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No Baloo, it started with you saying Labor is too disorganised to govern. You weren't able to back that up and just sidestepped any argument why the Libs might be disorganised.

BTW, the Libs always claim to be better economic managers than Labor, not just in the last week.
 
IanG said:
Was he changing the argument? The LNP are constantly harping on about their economic credentials as if the government is a business and one of their arguments that used to crop up along those lines was increasing debt under Labor.
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They are, and its just astronomically dumb. According to the Libs, a business shouldn't spend money to make money. They're like Dr Evil in Austin Powers. 'Debt under Labor will be 12 BILLION dollars'. They take people for patsys.
 
antman said:
You weren't able to back that up and just sidestepped any argument why the Libs might be disorganised.
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Where did I say the Libs weren't disorganised ? The factional fighting and sniping is all the proof you need to see the Libs aren't much better.

For me at least there is very little in it, and enough meat to make me troop to the embassy and vote when I don't have too. Last election I refused to vote for either party. The elections before that were more clear cut for me and was worth the trip to the voting booth.

You rabid unionists need to realise it's not an Us v Them argument. Some of us are really not aligned to any party and just take it election to election.
 
Baloo said:
Where did I say the Libs weren't disorganised ? The factional fighting and sniping is all the proof you need to see the Libs aren't much better.

For me at least there is very little in it, and enough meat to make me troop to the embassy and vote when I don't have too. Last election I refused to vote for either party. The elections before that were more clear cut for me and was worth the trip to the voting booth.

You rabid unionists need to realise it's not an Us v Them argument. Some of us are really not aligned to any party and just take it election to election.
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Quality rant Big Bear, but I can't recall mentioning unions at all.
 
Baloo said:
Where did I say the Libs weren't disorganised ? The factional fighting and sniping is all the proof you need to see the Libs aren't much better.

For me at least there is very little in it, and enough meat to make me troop to the embassy and vote when I don't have too. Last election I refused to vote for either party. The elections before that were more clear cut for me and was worth the trip to the voting booth.

You rabid unionists need to realise it's not an Us v Them argument. Some of us are really not aligned to any party and just take it election to election.
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Rabid unionists generally don't want union representation in the ALP reduced significantly.

But it sounds to me like it is a bit us and them for you. You'll vote for a tax evading former corporate boss against a former union boss on that alone it seems, forget the policies.

Sorry, but there's no way to be conciliatory, the Libs policies on the environment, education, national infrastructure including the NBN, and corporate tax cuts that nobody other than them really thinks are needed or will do much, are woeful.
 
I've never felt more sure and confident in how I want to vote. Best wishes Cathy. A breath of fresh air for Indi
 
If she's keeping Mirabella out she is alright by me. What a piece of work she is.

I hope Tony Windsor gets up in New England as well. He would have made a good PM if circumstances were different.
 
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