Terrorist Attacks | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Terrorist Attacks

glantone

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Jun 5, 2007
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Suicide bombers blow up 47 people in an Afghan mosque. So much for the foreign infidels excuse.
 
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DavidSSS

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How long ago was that happening?

Probably a while ago, although Ireland during the troubles is not that long ago.

Whether this is religious violence or just violence over political power with a religious tag line is debatable, but it is debatable both for Muslims and Christians. The Sunnis want a Caliphate, the Shia do not agree - I'm sure the Sunni Taliban have no problem referring to Shias as infidels. Wars and disputes within the same mob are often particularly nasty.

In any case, the Protestant/Catholic disputes led to a fair number of wars so there is a clear parallel.

DS
 

22nd Man

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a mate of mine lives in Kongsberg it's a small town. He was at a pub with a mate down the street. His wife was picking their son up from swimming around the corner, and the other son was walking home from the gym. So close for them. He says the town is genuinely freaked out.
Bow and arrow, no good violent ways to die but imagine this would be horrific.
 
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glantone

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Jun 5, 2007
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Probably a while ago, although Ireland during the troubles is not that long ago.

Whether this is religious violence or just violence over political power with a religious tag line is debatable, but it is debatable both for Muslims and Christians. The Sunnis want a Caliphate, the Shia do not agree - I'm sure the Sunni Taliban have no problem referring to Shias as infidels. Wars and disputes within the same mob are often particularly nasty.

In any case, the Protestant/Catholic disputes led to a fair number of wars so there is a clear parallel.

DS

I don’t know why you would import catholics/protestants into this. So why did you ?

You may have a greater understanding on this matter than me (I have next to none) but I couldn’t recall catholics and protestants ever killing each other en-masse over sacred text interpretations. But to my rescue Professor Google LLC informs that there was a 30 year mick/proddy religious war back in 1618-1648 in europe. That’s definitely a while ago. Like nearly 4 centuries a while ago. Is that the mick/proddy war you're referring to?

If you’re comparing the sectarian hatred between a bunch of european christians four centuries ago with the current sectarian hatred between a bunch of muslims in some muslim majority countries in 2021 I get the parallel. Maybe the catholics did yell 'God is great' and looked forward to death and an eternity in a catholic only paradise, I don't know but otherwise, I don't see the parallel.

The war in northern Ireland has always been about independence from england not interpretation of sacred texts.
 
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Ridley

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The war in northern Ireland has always been about independence from england not interpretation of sacred texts.
This. I spoke to an Irishman about this not long ago. It seems to have little to do with religion but is all about all of Ireland being independent of Great Britain.

He’s a real Paddy this guy. Fiercely pro one Ireland and anti British. The interesting thing he told me, that I didn’t know, was that Churchill gave the Irish the chance to get Northern Ireland back under the Republic of Ireland in WW2. All they had to do was fight alongside the British against the Germans. But the Irish leader at the time, can’t recall his name, was too stubborn and refused.
 

glantone

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Jun 5, 2007
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This. I spoke to an Irishman about this not long ago. It seems to have little to do with religion but is all about all of Ireland being independent of Great Britain.

He’s a real Paddy this guy. Fiercely pro one Ireland and anti British. The interesting thing he told me, that I didn’t know, was that Churchill gave the Irish the chance to get Northern Ireland back under the Republic of Ireland in WW2. All they had to do was fight alongside the British against the Germans. But the Irish leader at the time, can’t recall his name, was too stubborn and refused.
yeah, although plenty of Irish fought for the allies I think the Irish gov remained neutral during the war. Quite shameful but a reflection of how deep resentment ran.
 

AngryAnt

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Nov 25, 2004
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He’s a real Paddy this guy. Fiercely pro one Ireland and anti British. The interesting thing he told me, that I didn’t know, was that Churchill gave the Irish the chance to get Northern Ireland back under the Republic of Ireland in WW2. All they had to do was fight alongside the British against the Germans. But the Irish leader at the time, can’t recall his name, was too stubborn and refused.

Kind of but not quite :) Ireland was neutral in WW2 kind of understandably given their history of occupation by the British. Churchill did try to get them onside and actually talked about occupying Ireland to get access to the strategic ports, but the Americans (with the strong Irish diaspora's influence on American politics) supported Irish neutrality, the Irish feared the British would use cooperation as a way to annex Ireland again. Churchill sort of offered an end to partition to Roosevelt (not the Irish Taoisaech) but this was never realistic - the English voters would never accept ceding Northern Ireland, and neither would the Ulstermen of Northern Ireland.

In reality once the US got into the war the Irish neutrality became more that "we are neutral against Germany" and the Brits and Americans used Irish air and sea ports.

Good page on it here.


Off topic but on the same page youtube link to amazing audio of British lancaster crew on a bombing raids over Germany - they get hit by flak and don't bat an eyelid. They also shoot down a Jerry fighter and have a bit of a cheer. Low key British humour at being lit up by thousands of German spotlights.


This plane was eventually lost with all crew on a subsequent mission.
 
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AngryAnt

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Back on topic, Muslims traditionally kill other Muslims more than they kill non-Muslims, and also more than non-Muslims kill Muslims. Sectarianism runs deep inside that religion, but as usual it's really all about politics and power.
 

DavidSSS

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Dec 11, 2017
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I don’t know why you would import catholics/protestants into this. So why did you ?

You may have a greater understanding on this matter than me (I have next to none) but I couldn’t recall catholics and protestants ever killing each other en-masse over sacred text interpretations. But to my rescue Professor Google LLC informs that there was a 30 year mick/proddy religious war back in 1618-1648 in europe. That’s definitely a while ago. Like nearly 4 centuries a while ago. Is that the mick/proddy war you're referring to?

If you’re comparing the sectarian hatred between a bunch of european christians four centuries ago with the current sectarian hatred between a bunch of muslims in some muslim majority countries in 2021 I get the parallel. Maybe the catholics did yell 'God is great' and looked forward to death and an eternity in a catholic only paradise, I don't know but otherwise, I don't see the parallel.

The war in northern Ireland has always been about independence from england not interpretation of sacred texts.

Yes a while ago, and plenty of other wars and violence between Protestants and Catholics over the years.

To rephrase your last line, I can also say: The terrorist acts in Afghanistan have always been about political control not interpretation of sacred texts.

I don't see much difference to be honest, both religions have their factions and those factions fight wars and perpetuate violence on each other - some of this is about interpretation of "sacred" texts and a lot of it is all about political power. You can also point to Henry VIII persecuting Catholics when it became convenient for him to set up the Church of England (Protestant, apparently) so he could get a divorce. Catholic churches were converted to CofE and were banned, with those not willing to change faction persecuted. The dispute continued after Henry VIII of course, just ask Mary Stuart. I'm sure there was an element of getting to heaven by doing the work of god and rubbing out the infidel Protestants, or at least very similar promises.

There are real doctrinal differences between Catholics and Protestants (just don't ask me what they are, I was brought up an atheist and don't really know). Similarly there are real doctrinal differences between Shias and Sunnis. The main one, and you can see this in the way that Iran (Shia twelvers from memory) is not popular amongst surrounding Sunni countries (from what I know Wahabism in Saudi is Sunni, just a more fundamentalist version) because the Shia are waiting for the descendant of Mohammed to return, the Sunni view is that the Caliphate can be run by a descendant of Muslim rulers who are not necessarily descendants of Mohammed. Might have that slightly wrong it has been a while since I read much about this. So, as you can see, very real doctrinal differences, hence the Sunni fundamentalists can twist their interpretation of religious doctrine to call Shias infidels.

The real problem, as usual is the fundamentalists.

DS
 

glantone

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Jun 5, 2007
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Back on topic, Muslims traditionally kill other Muslims more than they kill non-Muslims, and also more than non-Muslims kill Muslims. Sectarianism runs deep inside that religion, but as usual it's really all about politics and power.

Totally agree with all that except for that last bit. I don’t think blowing oneself up along with as many innocents as possible over a desire for political change or quest for power is plausible. The dead bomber can neither witness political change or enjoy the power. The reward for Islamic suicide bombers has been and will always be 100% guaranteed eternity in paradise with hymen intact women. Perhaps terrorist leaders think along power & political lines but I believe the core motivation for their willing foot soldiers are religious based.

Sam Harris and others have made the point that to dismiss the sincerity of the religious convictions of suicide bombers and other Islamic jihadi as politically motivated lacks empathy on our part. In Isis’ propaganda magazine Dabiq’s (15th issue – can’t find it to download but Harris reads out their essay on his podcast) Isis make it crystal that they kill people of whatever religion or lack of because they do not adhere to their interpretation of the sacred texts. And they find it amusing that no matter how many times they tell the western world why they are killing people, western liberals reject Isis’ own reasons for behaving like they do preferring to adopt their own pc position that accounts for Isis' behaviour - it’s all because of territorial beefs, historical grievances, colonialism, wealth distribution etc etc That’s pretty funny really....
 
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glantone

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David, I think my last response to both Antman and you kind of covers it for me so it would be dull witted of me to keep repeating it. The point is we are now in the year of our Lord Budhha 2564 (hahaha) and comparing religious wars between Christians from centuries ago to current Islamic wars only serves to show how backward and sorry these societies are and how deeply they have failed their own people. Murdering people in the name of sacred texts is really the end of the world in a way. None of it could be possible without the existence of the Quran which as every religious Muslim knows is the literal word of God.

So to me the main problem for Muslims and so the rest of the world is how the Quran as the literal word of God can never be publicly questioned, deconstructed or subjected to rigorous critical thinking. While it remains a holy grail it’s really guide book for the religious extremists.
 
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AngryAnt

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Totally agree with all that except for that last bit. I don’t think blowing oneself up along with as many innocents as possible over a desire for political change or quest for power is plausible. The dead bomber can neither witness political change or enjoy the power. The reward for Islamic suicide bombers has been and will always be 100% guaranteed eternity in paradise with hymen intact women. Perhaps terrorist leaders think along power & political lines but I believe the core motivation for their willing foot soldiers are religious based.

Sam Harris and others have made the point that to dismiss the sincerity of the religious convictions of suicide bombers and other Islamic jihadi as politically motivated lacks empathy on our part. In Isis’ propaganda magazine Dabiq’s (15th issue – can’t find it to download but Harris reads out their essay on his podcast) Isis make it crystal that they kill people of whatever religion or lack of because they do not adhere to their interpretation of the sacred texts. And they find it amusing that no matter how many times they tell the western world why they are killing people, western liberals reject Isis’ own reasons for behaving like they do preferring to adopt their own pc position that accounts for Isis' behaviour - it’s all because of territorial beefs, historical grievances, colonialism, wealth distribution etc etc That’s pretty funny really....

Good thoughts Glantone. I think the leaders are cynical enough to play power games but for many of them their beliefs are "sincere", absolutely.

A bombing usually has a strategic as well as a religious goal.
 

MD Jazz

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Feb 3, 2017
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Good thoughts Glantone. I think the leaders are cynical enough to play power games but for many of them their beliefs are "sincere", absolutely.

A bombing usually has a strategic as well as a religious goal.
Not for the bomber. How could it be anything but purely religious?
 

DavidSSS

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Dec 11, 2017
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David, I think my last response to both Antman and you kind of covers it for me so it would be dull witted of me to keep repeating it. The point is we are now in the year of our Lord Budhha 2564 (hahaha) and comparing religious wars between Christians from centuries ago to current Islamic wars only serves to show how backward and sorry these societies are and how deeply they have failed their own people. Murdering people in the name of sacred texts is really the end of the world in a way. None of it could be possible without the existence of the Quran which as every religious Muslim knows is the literal word of God.

So to me the main problem for Muslims and so the rest of the world is how the Quran as the literal word of God can never be publicly questioned, deconstructed or subjected to rigorous critical thinking. While it remains a holy grail it’s really guide book for the religious extremists.

I would agree that the Catholic/Protestant disputes tend to be longer ago but the fact remains many people lost their lives as a result. It will be good when the small minority of Muslims get past this but there is a clear parallel. Mind you, the prejudices remain in Christianity too, I think I recall hearing that Joe Biden is Catholic, only the second Catholic President ever in the USA. Both major parties know it is risky nominating a Catholic.

The Quran, in common with other religious texts, is open to many interpretations. Comes with the genre. While some choose to interpret the Quran and Jihad as an excuse to kill anyone they choose to define as an infidel, which may include those who have a different interpretation of the religion and the religious texts, I am yet to hear of a passage in the Quran which tells people to kill those they disagree with. I'll add that I have never heard of a passage in the Bible which justifies the crusades or any other religious violence, or Hindu holy books justifying burning down mosques. There are others who will cite the Quran as a reason for spreading peace, the same applies to the Bible and any other religious text.

DS
 

glantone

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Jun 5, 2007
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David, I wouldn’t call catholic/protestant wars tending to be longer ago. They were literally centuries ago like witch burning but lets move on. And we’re not talking about religious prejudices here we’re talking about the slaughter of people, usually innocent people whilst invoking a god.

I could google ultra violent verses in the Quran but what would be the point? Scholars discuss the meaning of verses and in which context they should be read or which verses are metaphors til the cows come home and then again before milking and so on until they themselves become dust. The point is what tolerant liberal minded David or fellow atheist glantone think of Quranic verses is irrelevant. What matters is how muslims living in incredibly diverse cultures interpret the Quran. The mere fact that people invoke the Quran when committing atrocities is as clear an interpretation of verse being put into action as possible. I don’t know how a final claim of ‘god is great’ before blowing oneself up in a kids concert or flying plane into a sky scaper can be spun any other way, other than as a religious inspired event.

Ofcourse as you say Jihadhists are a tiny minority (and it goes without saying that the overwhelming number of Muslims on the planet are loving caring non violent people) but the jihadists are the manifestation of extreme literal readings of the Quran and they don’t require our consent or understanding to believe what they believe and do what they do. I can not think of any other religion or sacred text in the world today that inspires this *smile* on a reliably regular basis.
 
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