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U.S Presidential Election

DavidSSS

Tiger Champion
Dec 11, 2017
4,923
5,694
Melbourne
Not going to read something from the Mises mob, was it not Mises who wrote:

It cannot be denied that fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilisation.

He also claimed that fascism has won merit for itself.

Enough on that tangent though.

Fascism has always been a bit difficult to pin down, there being no overarching theory and examples with many differences. The most obvious examples would be Hitler, Mussolini and Franco.

There are a few features which fascist regimes share:
  • They are very nationalistic, and generally racist in support.
  • A strong leader is a feature.
  • They suppress any opposition.
  • Undermine any opposing opinions even to the extent of denying reality, this is generally a first step followed by just banning opposing opinions.

Trump and his mates exhibited some of these tendencies in various ways but it would be a very large stretch to call Trump fascist.

DS
 

Legends of 2017

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!
Mar 24, 2005
4,504
1,507
Melbourne
Not going to read something from the Mises mob, was it not Mises who wrote:



He also claimed that fascism has won merit for itself.

Enough on that tangent though.

Fascism has always been a bit difficult to pin down, there being no overarching theory and examples with many differences. The most obvious examples would be Hitler, Mussolini and Franco.

There are a few features which fascist regimes share:
  • They are very nationalistic, and generally racist in support.
  • A strong leader is a feature.
  • They suppress any opposition.
  • Undermine any opposing opinions even to the extent of denying reality, this is generally a first step followed by just banning opposing opinions.

Trump and his mates exhibited some of these tendencies in various ways but it would be a very large stretch to call Trump fascist.

DS
That’s interesting. Does that make China communist or fascist?
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,182
155
I think perhaps a lot of what you have characterised as fascist is more about despotic regimes in general rather than unique characteristics of fascism. You might be interested in this:

yeah you might be right. Despotic regimes have a lot in common. I'm not sure what is unique to fascism and what is not other than Hitler's fascist elite all being decked out in Hugo Boss designer wear....haha

Interesting read but perhaps presumes the reader to have a sounder background in or knowledge of economic and political theory than the likes of me to fully appreciate the author’s points.

Shame the language in the article comes across as cultish, doused in paranoia and opinion which sets off my ‘lets run for it’ early warning alarm system. From point 1,

‘If you become directly ensnared in the state’s web, you will quickly discover that there are indeed no limits to what the state can do. This can happen boarding a flight, driving around in your hometown, or having your business run afoul of some government agency. In the end, you must obey or be caged like an animal or killed. In this way, no matter how much you may believe that you are free, all of us today are but one step away from Guantanamo.’

Seriously?

(I then read 'celebrating 30 years of Mises University' by Rockwell Jr and it also sounded cultish but that's by the by)

But the article you linked does highlight some characteristics of which many people would call fascist.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
2,503
228
That’s interesting. Does that make China communist or fascist?
I've argued for a while that China is evolving, or has evolved into a unique eastern incarnation of Fascism.

During Mao's time it was a totalitarian Communist dictatorship (of the Leninist denomination). What has happened is that the CCP has done away with the communist economic model and replaced it with a form of State sponsored capitalism. But it has retained the totalitarian Leninist governance structure. The combination creates probably the most perfect example of organised systemic crony capitalism we have ever seen - one very important ingredient of fascism.

One missing ingredient up until relatively recently was a strong sense of ethno-nationalism. Under Xi's rule the ethno-nationalistic element has become increasingly prevalent.
 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,182
155
I've argued for a while that China is evolving, or has evolved into a unique eastern incarnation of Fascism.

During Mao's time it was a totalitarian Communist dictatorship (of the Leninist denomination). What has happened is that the CCP has done away with the communist economic model and replaced it with a form of State sponsored capitalism. But it has retained the totalitarian Leninist governance structure. The combination creates probably the most perfect example of organised systemic crony capitalism we have ever seen - one very important ingredient of fascism.

One missing ingredient up until relatively recently was a strong sense of ethno-nationalism. Under Xi's rule the ethno-nationalistic element has become increasingly prevalent.
Nice post. Have never really known which word best describes totalitarian regimes of the left.
Ethno-nationalism is scary stuff. Not much room for tolerance. No grey areas. Was surprised at the strength of conviction of many of the chinese students studying here who disapproved of any expression of free speech concerning the Hong Kong protests.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,392
6,954
Nice post. Have never really known which word best describes totalitarian regimes of the left.
Ethno-nationalism is scary stuff. Not much room for tolerance. No grey areas. Was surprised at the strength of conviction of many of the chinese students studying here who disapproved of any expression of free speech concerning the Hong Kong protests.

yeah, agree with a lot of that PT. I think there are differences between extreme left regimes like North Korea, Cambodia under Pol Pot, and far right like Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco. Iraq under Saddam maybe. But they are all totalitarian, they seek utter control of the population in both the public and private spheres, so the differences become academic.

Trump has fascist tendencies - cult of personality, desire to deconstruct existing systems of law and government, blurring of his personal businesses and the office of president, oppression and demonisation of minorities, constructing "enemies" both inside America and outside it. But like I keep saying, he never had the discipline or frankly the intellect to become a true fascist leader. He got the cult of personality thing going for base, but never had the power or discipline to force it on the rest of the population.
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
2,503
228
Nice post. Have never really known which word best describes totalitarian regimes of the left.
Ethno-nationalism is scary stuff. Not much room for tolerance. No grey areas. Was surprised at the strength of conviction of many of the chinese students studying here who disapproved of any expression of free speech concerning the Hong Kong protests.
And this is where we need to be careful at deciphering between the CCP regime and ethnically Chinese people. The two are not one in the same.

On the ethno-nationalistic side of things, the CCP has a very deliberate strategy of blurring this line. They are essentially coercively trying to take ownership over 'Chineseness' for want of a better description. Therefore creating a situation where all Chinese history of past greatness, all Chinese culture and all people around the world of ethnically Chinese extraction are synonymous with and owned by the current regime. Which is a completely contrived fabrication of reality.

Two good friends of mine are of ethnically Chinese extraction. One from Taiwan, the other ethnically Chinese from Indonesia. They look on with this with disdain or even horror. Their families haven't lived in China for 60-80 years (some branches of their family tree, even longer). And their families watched on with sadness as Mao's regime tried a near Pol Pot style year zero approach of contemptuously purging China of it's links to past cultural history and starting again. Some branches of one of these friend's family actually escaped that period to SE Asia (as did millions of others to many parts of the world). So they find it extremely sanctimonious and cynically calculated for the CCP to now try and claim ownership over 'Chineseness'. As a result, some of the most vocal critics of the CCP regime are actually in these older established, 'Overseas Chinese' communities.

But here's the crux. This strategy of muddying the waters between the regime and Overseas ethnically Chinese people is not only about the CCP regaining power over older established 'Overseas Chinese' communities. It's also about using some of our weaknesses against ourselves. Because a country like Australia does have a regrettable history with such policies as the White Australia policy. There is a tendency to sometimes overcompensate and jump at shadows with cries of racism at the slightest sign, even when there isn't any racist intent. Hence any criticism of the CCP regime becomes and is framed as racist criticism of Chinese people. And hence the view is shut down without listening to any nuance of what is actually being said. This is why it is very important for western countries like Australia to not view them as "all the same" (ignorance being another weakness in our society deliberately used against us). The older established 'Overseas Chinese' communities are very important allies.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,392
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And this is where we need to be careful at deciphering between the CCP regime and ethnically Chinese people. The two are not one in the same.

On the ethno-nationalistic side of things, the CCP has a very deliberate strategy of blurring this line. They are essentially coercively trying to take ownership over 'Chineseness' for want of a better description. Therefore creating a situation where all Chinese history of past greatness, all Chinese culture and all people around the world of ethnically Chinese extraction are synonymous with and owned by the current regime. Which is a completely contrived fabrication of reality.
Indeed, much like Hitler and the calls back to Aryan mythology and supremacy.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,392
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So Trump has the lowest approval ratings for an exiting president in history, but Malaria was not to be outdone!

 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
38,649
8,417
The Leader the US, and World, needed. Cruelly defeated by the China Virus though less worthy Leaders around the world were able to grow in popularity during the crisis.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,355
712
Brisbane
yeah you might be right. Despotic regimes have a lot in common. I'm not sure what is unique to fascism and what is not other than Hitler's fascist elite all being decked out in Hugo Boss designer wear....haha

Interesting read but perhaps presumes the reader to have a sounder background in or knowledge of economic and political theory than the likes of me to fully appreciate the author’s points.
What part's didn't make sense to you?

Shame the language in the article comes across as cultish, doused in paranoia and opinion which sets off my ‘lets run for it’ early warning alarm system. From point 1,

‘If you become directly ensnared in the state’s web, you will quickly discover that there are indeed no limits to what the state can do. This can happen boarding a flight, driving around in your hometown, or having your business run afoul of some government agency. In the end, you must obey or be caged like an animal or killed. In this way, no matter how much you may believe that you are free, all of us today are but one step away from Guantanamo.’

Seriously?

One minute you claim that the US is 1-2 elections away from an authoritarian US fascistic state and then are surprised at a claim that it is here now? I bet 12 months ago you would have thought it unlikely the state could lock you at home through threat of imprisonment (or if you resisted, death) for weeks-months on end?
 

TrialByVideo

HailBGale!
Mar 1, 2015
2,496
3,918
Podcast from expat Jonathan Swan... make of it what you will.

Trump’s Last Stand: How much damage can a sitting president do in a day or a week or two months? In the first series of How It Happened, national political reporter Jonathan Swan reveals the inside story of Donald Trump’s last few months in office. The story starts with his COVID-19 recovery and ends with the insurrection at the Capitol.

 

Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
21,526
5,163
so 74 million voted for fascism ?

The US has a bigger problem than we thought
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,182
155
What part's didn't make sense to you?

The problem is without having an proper understanding of economic theories and how they differ in their implementation and outcomes, how the government sustains economic life, how the tax system works, how the bureaucracy works etc I can’t know if what is being presented is true, accurate, debatable, biased or whatever. And so I can neither digest or argue as to the validity of his claims.

It might also be some things the author describes as fascist doesn’t feel fascist to me. Health care being regulated doesn’t feel fascist.

For people like me it would be good if the author could point to a country past or present where the alternate economic and political system he prefers did operate or is in operation and how their systems interact internally and with the rest of the world. Then I could compare.
Can you name one country?
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,392
6,954
The problem is without having an proper understanding of economic theories and how they differ in their implementation and outcomes, how the government sustains economic life, how the tax system works, how the bureaucracy works etc I can’t know if what is being presented is true, accurate, debatable, biased or whatever. And so I can neither digest or argue as to the validity of his claims.

It might also be some things the author describes as fascist doesn’t feel fascist to me. Health care being regulated doesn’t feel fascist.

For people like me it would be good if the author could point to a country past or present where the alternate economic and political system he prefers did operate or is in operation and how their systems interact internally and with the rest of the world. Then I could compare.
Can you name one country?

Did he really write regulated health care is a kind of fascism? that's cray cray

EDIT, just read it - the author has redefined "fascism" to suit their own purposes.