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U.S Presidential Election

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,309
675
Brisbane
yeah, more a response to G-Man's contention that the Absolute Monarchy of Lichtenstein is better than India.
You might find this interesting. Perhaps Churchill was right, depending on your definition of democracy:

 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
14,563
9,623
It really feels like there's one more desperate play in the Trump handbook. After recent events nothing will surprise in this American shitshow.

I reckon hes gonna run to stay out of jail and bankruptsy court.

No idea of extradition treatys or hpw it works but i reckon the right wing pres of Slovinia (melanias home turf) will grant asylum or something

Just a wild guess

I agree theres some to play out yet
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,173
140
The pessimist in me shapes my wild guess. Trump will tie up most legal matters in the courts for years to come as he always has and providing he is constitutionally allowed to run for next election he will. 74 million americans voted for him and despite the damage the capitol riot has done to him amongst his voters he still has an enormous support base from which to relaunch. The majority of the republican party politicians still support Trump reflecting their utter contempt for democracy. There remains much to fuel his lust for power. If Trump can’t run again any one of his loyal followers will fill the void. I fear a truly authoritarian fascist USA is just an election or 2 away.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
38,292
7,714
Of those 74million, how many voted for Trump and how many voted for a GOP President?
 

glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,173
140
Of those 74million, how many voted for Trump and how many voted for a GOP President?
Dunno. Talking to an american neighbour he said he voted republican despite not liking Trump. He thought the damage the democrats will do (to the economy and society I'm guessing) presented a worse threat to the US than Trump. After Trump's 'last stand' he said he couldn't vote at all.
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,309
675
Brisbane
The pessimist in me shapes my wild guess. Trump will tie up most legal matters in the courts for years to come as he always has and providing he is constitutionally allowed to run for next election he will. 74 million americans voted for him and despite the damage the capitol riot has done to him amongst his voters he still has an enormous support base from which to relaunch. The majority of the republican party politicians still support Trump reflecting their utter contempt for democracy. There remains much to fuel his lust for power. If Trump can’t run again any one of his loyal followers will fill the void. I fear a truly authoritarian fascist USA is just an election or 2 away.
What does a fascist state mean to you, out of interest?

Also I don’t think it is a bad position to have utter contempt for US style democracy. It means that 74 million people at least have to have a government they don’t support, a government they have very little means of communicating with and their only means to change it is to vote every four years where their vote in the grand scheme of things is actually powerless. There is no exit option.
 
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Ian4

BIN MAN!
May 6, 2004
20,093
1,227
Melbourne
It really feels like there's one more desperate play in the Trump handbook. After recent events nothing will surprise in this American shitshow.

Agree. QAnon and other Trump supporters still believe Biden will not become president, even at this late stage. The nutters will be out in force, without a doubt.

The pessimist in me shapes my wild guess. Trump will tie up most legal matters in the courts for years to come as he always has and providing he is constitutionally allowed to run for next election he will.

civil lawsuits, yes. criminal charges, no. I can definitely see Trump behind bars come wednesday night USA time. He should be, thats for sure.
 
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antman

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
21,221
6,777
What does a fascist state mean to you, out of interest?

Also I don’t think it is a bad position to have utter contempt for US style democracy. It means that 74 million people at least have to have a government they don’t support, a government they have very little means of communicating with and their only means to change it is to vote every four years where their vote in the grand scheme of things is actually powerless. There is no exit option.

Agree, representative democracy is an increasingly corrupt and tired model - but again, what do we replace it with? Thanks for the link to the Lichtenstein info, interesting but the author doesn't really come to grips with why that system is better, except by describing the system and the Prince's commitment to Mises. Reminded me of the Swiss Canton systems in some ways.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Superstar
Apr 27, 2010
2,449
146
Agree, representative democracy is an increasingly corrupt and tired model - but again, what do we replace it with? Thanks for the link to the Lichtenstein info, interesting but the author doesn't really come to grips with why that system is better, except by describing the system and the Prince's commitment to Mises. Reminded me of the Swiss Canton systems in some ways.
No system is perfect. But there are many lessons that can be taken from the Swiss version of Federation and blended with other ideas.

Switzerland continually rates very highly in surveys relating to citizen's trust in politicians. The system of government has a lot to do with this for a number of reasons. Some of which are:

1) Quite a bit of direct democracy is built into the system
2) Political representation and decision making is quite decentralised and localised, meaning the people feel closer and engaged with the political system
3) No winner takes all Presidency - it's a collective executive
4) Very few would be considered professional political class (for want of a better description). Most political representatives are part time and keep their hand in their profession while serving. It means there isn't this demarcation between the political bubble and what's happening on the ground in the real world of electors.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
38,292
7,714
1) Quite a bit of direct democracy is built into the system
2) Political representation and decision making is quite decentralised and localised, meaning the people feel closer and engaged with the political system
3) No winner takes all Presidency - it's a collective executive
4) Very few would be considered professional political class (for want of a better description). Most political representatives are part time and keep their hand in their profession while serving. It means there isn't this demarcation between the political bubble and what's happening on the ground in the real world of electors.

The other important point is the Swiss take it seriously. They also have a very strong sense of community and will vote for what they feel is best for the Stadt, Kanton or Country rather than what would be most beneficial for themselves. It's also against the law to do your washing on Sunday's in a lot of places.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
38,292
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For those that don't think Politico is impartial, here's Axios, the political media mob that Trump agreed to have a sit down interview with (with Australian Jonathan Swan).

So far a 5 part series on the meltdown of Trump. Fascinating reading so far

Off the rails: Behind Trump's post-election meltdown - Axios

Most interesting is that Trump's plan to declare that he won the night of the Election no matter the results, was tripped up by Fox News declaring Arizona as Blue.
 
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glantone

dog at the footy, punt rd end
Jun 5, 2007
1,173
140
What does a fascist state mean to you, out of interest?

Also I don’t think it is a bad position to have utter contempt for US style democracy. It means that 74 million people at least have to have a government they don’t support, a government they have very little means of communicating with and their only means to change it is to vote every four years where their vote in the grand scheme of things is actually powerless. There is no exit option.

Good question. We use terms loosely. On a purely intuitive level - I've never studied it - I guess for me it means many things. All dark all negative. I think about fascist regimes of the past and now and their commonalities.

They are built on a complex order of many many lies and a demand for compliance. And I acknowledge that fascism doesn't have a monopoly on lies and demanding compliance.

They more often than not have a leader who is the saviour and so sole source of the truth. His lies are the new truth. Absolute loyalty is demanded. Transgressors are ruthlessly punished often involving public humiliation which ends up career ending or life threatening.

Fascist regimes undermine democratic institutions that threaten or contradict their narrative, their will. They peddle confusion and distrust in any body or institution outside of the regime so that fellow government officials, electoral and legal institutions, the media, the security branches, medical and educational institutions etc are all to be dismissed as enemies of the regime and so the people if they don't fall into line.

They invent grand conspiracies and upon these conspiracies nurture a lived experience disconnected from fact and tainted in fear. People and cultures and institutions which are not enemies are portrayed as such. Xenophobia reins. There is much to fear. They are racist.

Conciliation is viewed as weakness. And fascism is patriarchal so control over a woman’s body is essential. As such half of the population is perpetually discriminated against. I just can't think of anything inviting in fascism but that's my intuition.

Can you think of a country under a fascist regime now or in the past in which you would like to bring up your family?

As for the US, the state of play is contemptuous I agree. Way way too partisan. It's awful. How did it come to this?
Simply voting at election time isn't enough. It seems obvious that democracy is a fragile thing that needs to be constantly tended to by active community involvement at every level. And it obviously relies heavily on good faith actors of which unfortunately the US doesn't have enough of.

Have you a theory on why the US is so broken? If we were to roll back time and not invent the internet I wonder what a counter factual 2021 America would be like?
 
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scottyturnerscurse

Tiger Champion
Apr 29, 2006
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Of those 74million, how many voted for Trump and how many voted for a GOP President?

This point is never explored enough. The Georgia run-offs excluded, the GOP performed better in down ballot contests than they did in the presidential in the 2020 election. Trump was a drag on the ticket.
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,309
675
Brisbane
Good question. We use terms loosely. On a purely intuitive level - I've never studied it - I guess for me it means many things. All dark all negative. I think about fascist regimes of the past and now and their commonalities.

They are built on a complex order of many many lies and a demand for compliance. And I acknowledge that fascism doesn't have a monopoly on lies and demanding compliance.

They more often than not have a leader who is the saviour and so sole source of the truth. His lies are the new truth. Absolute loyalty is demanded. Transgressors are ruthlessly punished often involving public humiliation which ends up career ending or life threatening.

Fascist regimes undermine democratic institutions that threaten or contradict their narrative, their will. They peddle confusion and distrust in any body or institution outside of the regime so that fellow government officials, electoral and legal institutions, the media, the security branches, medical and educational institutions etc are all to be dismissed as enemies of the regime and so the people if they don't fall into line.

They invent grand conspiracies and upon these conspiracies nurture a lived experience disconnected from fact and tainted in fear. People and cultures and institutions which are not enemies are portrayed as such. Xenophobia reins. There is much to fear. They are racist.

Conciliation is viewed as weakness. And fascism is patriarchal so control over a woman’s body is essential. As such half of the population is perpetually discriminated against. I just can't think of anything inviting in fascism but that's my intuition.

Can you think of a country under a fascist regime now or in the past in which you would like to bring up your family?

As for the US, the state of play is contemptuous I agree. Way way too partisan. It's awful. How did it come to this?

Simply voting at election time isn't enough. It seems obvious that democracy is a fragile thing that needs to be constantly tended to by active community involvement at every level. And it obviously relies heavily on good faith actors of which unfortunately the US doesn't have enough of.

Have you a theory on why the US is so broken? If we were to roll back time and not invent the internet I wonder what a counter factual 2021 America would be like?
I think perhaps a lot of what you have characterised as fascist is more about despotic regimes in general rather than unique characteristics of fascism. You might be interested in this:
 
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