U.S Presidential Election | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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U.S Presidential Election

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,746
1,767
Liz Cheney (daughter of D!ck), Republican member of Congress since 2017 who was re-elected in 2020 with 73% of the vote, has lost her primary to a Trumpist. Cheney has been a leading critic of Drumpf and a member of the January 6 commission.

She's still very much a neocon but not on board with the Republican shift to RW delusional f*ckwittery. Talking of a potential presidential run herself. Very popular across the country.
I wonder how widely RW populist Trumpism has spread through the overall Republican movement.

For instance, in the deep red states, it seems it might be well entrenched. However I’m no expert on Republican Primaries. So I am wondering what the dynamics are in the Republican movement outside the deep red states. And hence, how a Cheney type would fare in the Republican Primaries in the large blue states (California, NY etc). Would winning those states conjure up enough Republican Primary votes to make the overall Republican Primary winnable for a Cheney type?
 

spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
22,316
27,613
Melbourne
I wonder how widely RW populist Trumpism has spread through the overall Republican movement.

For instance, in the deep red states, it seems it might be well entrenched. However I’m no expert on Republican Primaries. So I am wondering what the dynamics are in the Republican movement outside the deep red states. And hence, how a Cheney type would fare in the Republican Primaries in the large blue states (California, NY etc). Would winning those states conjure up enough Republican Primary votes to make the overall Republican Primary winnable for a Cheney type?
No idea, mate. I only know enough about the US electoral system to know that it's fcuked.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,714
18,356
Melbourne
What it comes down to, I suspect even in the primaries, is who turns out to vote. Given that the Republican run states make damned sure it is really difficult to vote if you're black, hispanic, live in a democrat voting area, I doubt they make it easier anywhere in their primaries. Plus the Trump mob are highly motivated and will go out to vote. The idea that Cheney would have some chance with big states like California and New York has legs although Texas would nullify one of these. Also not sure how their primaries are distributed, do small states with high Trump support get an out-sized proportion of the conference delegates? No idea.

I don't mind the idea of Cheney challenging for the Republican nomination and she could well do a fair bit of harm to Trump in the primaries. But if she then stood as an independent in the actual election she would likely take votes from moderate republicans who would otherwise not vote and may also take some Democrat votes. Would be more likely to split the anti-Trump vote in the Presidential election, also doubt she would get on the ballot for some states (yes, this is possible with their system, you can nominate for Pres but not be on the ballot in all states)

Tricky situation but at the moment Trump seems to have a strong grip on the Republican party.

DS
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,746
1,767
What it comes down to, I suspect even in the primaries, is who turns out to vote. Given that the Republican run states make damned sure it is really difficult to vote if you're black, hispanic, live in a democrat voting area, I doubt they make it easier anywhere in their primaries. Plus the Trump mob are highly motivated and will go out to vote. The idea that Cheney would have some chance with big states like California and New York has legs although Texas would nullify one of these. Also not sure how their primaries are distributed, do small states with high Trump support get an out-sized proportion of the conference delegates? No idea.

I don't mind the idea of Cheney challenging for the Republican nomination and she could well do a fair bit of harm to Trump in the primaries. But if she then stood as an independent in the actual election she would likely take votes from moderate republicans who would otherwise not vote and may also take some Democrat votes. Would be more likely to split the anti-Trump vote in the Presidential election, also doubt she would get on the ballot for some states (yes, this is possible with their system, you can nominate for Pres but not be on the ballot in all states)

Tricky situation but at the moment Trump seems to have a strong grip on the Republican party.

DS
Yeah, similar musings to what I had. I really can’t get a definitive read on how the cards would fall within the primaries system. Can only take educated guesses. And the fact it’s only voluntary voting will favour a more zealous and/or motivated movement - even more so in the Primaries. That to me is the crucial factor you mention.

I know we *smile* at times about our electoral system. Sure, it’s not perfect and there are certain parts of it I am not a big fan of (senate voting system is my biggest bugbear). But I thank our lucky stars every election that we have an independent electoral commission. I know a lot of people aren’t overly complementary of compulsory voting either. But it ensures that voting is made extremely accessible and does seem to work as somewhat of a safeguard against more zealous political movements also.
 
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Batchelor Party

Tiger Matchwinner
Mar 25, 2011
778
1,073
USA
I wonder how widely RW populist Trumpism has spread through the overall Republican movement.

For instance, in the deep red states, it seems it might be well entrenched. However I’m no expert on Republican Primaries. So I am wondering what the dynamics are in the Republican movement outside the deep red states. And hence, how a Cheney type would fare in the Republican Primaries in the large blue states (California, NY etc). Would winning those states conjure up enough Republican Primary votes to make the overall Republican Primary winnable for a Cheney type?
In recent primaries across the country, 85% of Trump backed candidates won, 151 out of 178. This is country wide; Bill Maher reported on it on his show Real Time with Bill Maher. Terrible indicator of the divide in this country and the depth of Trump support.
 

IanG

Tiger Legend
Sep 27, 2004
18,119
3,367
Melbourne
I'm becoming firmly convinced that the USA is eventually going to break up into 2 maybe even 3 countries if Texas wants to go it alone.
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,174
19,046
I'm becoming firmly convinced that the USA is eventually going to break up into 2 maybe even 3 countries if Texas wants to go it alone.
The Handmaid's Tale comes to life
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,714
18,356
Melbourne
Yeah, similar musings to what I had. I really can’t get a definitive read on how the cards would fall within the primaries system. Can only take educated guesses. And the fact it’s only voluntary voting will favour a more zealous and/or motivated movement - even more so in the Primaries. That to me is the crucial factor you mention.

I know we *smile* at times about our electoral system. Sure, it’s not perfect and there are certain parts of it I am not a big fan of (senate voting system is my biggest bugbear). But I thank our lucky stars every election that we have an independent electoral commission. I know a lot of people aren’t overly complementary of compulsory voting either. But it ensures that voting is made extremely accessible and does seem to work as somewhat of a safeguard against more zealous political movements also.

I've always looked at compulsory voting as effectively forcing people to take responsibility for their right to vote. I don't like forcing this, but I also don't think it is a big ask to tell people they have to turn up once every 3 years. The one thing I don't like about compulsory voting in the context of the current system is that the actual voting part of this is not compulsory. What is compulsory is to have your name ticked off and collect a ballot paper, you are under no compulsion to fill it in. Unfortunately you are not allowed to go around saying that if you like none of the candidates you don't have to vote for any of them. Compulsory voting gets people to the ballot box which is a positive, but they should be presented with all options. Most will choose to fill in the ballot since they turned up.

One of the things which does distinguish the USA is that countries with voluntary voting, ie just about every country, generally encourage people to get out and vote (although I have no idea why so many of them hold elections on weekdays). But in the USA they selectively discourage voting. I remember an election some years ago where voters in black areas were lining up for hours to vote as there were very few polling places, while the white areas had heaps of voting places and no lines. You weren't able to go and vote outside your own area in that state/county. The way voting is controlled by the states does reflect that the USA is a union of states not a federation, but it is absurd that states have so much power of elections for federal office.

DS
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,746
1,767
In recent primaries across the country, 85% of Trump backed candidates won, 151 out of 178. This is country wide; Bill Maher reported on it on his show Real Time with Bill Maher. Terrible indicator of the divide in this country and the depth of Trump support.
Well this leads me into another discussion point. Where does this all lead us if Trump doesn’t run?

If the movement is that ingrained, perhaps it’s grown it’s own legs and is breeding it’s own candidates now.

People often colloquially call Trump a fascist I don’t believe he is. Does he have fascist tendencies? Yes, absolutely. But I don’t believe he is competent, intelligent, coherent or disciplined enough to be an actual fascist. However, who is the heir apparent within this movement? Who is the movement creating that could could take baton? The next incarnation could have all of the elements of Trump, but with the competency, intellect, ideological coherence and discipline to actually be a fascist.
 

Redford

Tiger Legend
Dec 18, 2002
34,914
27,148
Tel Aviv
I wonder if he'll plead the 5th when it comes time to give evidence
You know how here in Australia you can be classified a legal pest or whatever it’s called (ie suing someone for something every 5 mins without substance) then don’t they have something similar in the US ?
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,746
1,767
I've always looked at compulsory voting as effectively forcing people to take responsibility for their right to vote. I don't like forcing this, but I also don't think it is a big ask to tell people they have to turn up once every 3 years. The one thing I don't like about compulsory voting in the context of the current system is that the actual voting part of this is not compulsory. What is compulsory is to have your name ticked off and collect a ballot paper, you are under no compulsion to fill it in. Unfortunately you are not allowed to go around saying that if you like none of the candidates you don't have to vote for any of them. Compulsory voting gets people to the ballot box which is a positive, but they should be presented with all options. Most will choose to fill in the ballot since they turned up.

One of the things which does distinguish the USA is that countries with voluntary voting, ie just about every country, generally encourage people to get out and vote (although I have no idea why so many of them hold elections on weekdays). But in the USA they selectively discourage voting. I remember an election some years ago where voters in black areas were lining up for hours to vote as there were very few polling places, while the white areas had heaps of voting places and no lines. You weren't able to go and vote outside your own area in that state/county. The way voting is controlled by the states does reflect that the USA is a union of states not a federation, but it is absurd that states have so much power of elections for federal office.

DS
You know the one thing my British mates seem to have observed here, compared to the UK (where voting is obviously voluntary). As you quite rightly suggest, yes, people are encouraged to vote in a country like the UK. But because it’s not mandatory, there doesn’t seem to quite be the same saturation of voting booths.

By having a compulsory vote, the AEC have made it their mission that there will be saturation of voting booths. Give people no reason to not turn up seems to be the mantra.

I’ve worked at a lot of elections as a polling official (really enjoy it actually) and sometimes I think to myself that it could be done more efficiently and do away with a third or even half of the booths in some towns/cities. But that would be against the spirit of our system. The spin off of compulsory voting is that the system makes accessibility paramount. And that can only be a good thing.

I have ambivalent feelings towards compulsory voting. But the good outweighs the bad from my experience. The compromise would be like you say, perhaps make it more publicised that it’s only compulsory to get one’s name ticked off and hence, their right to put a blank form in the box if they so wish.

The other point I’d extend on, when you’re comparing our electoral system to the US. It’s not just that there is no consistency from state to state in the US. I believe that they don’t even have a neutral, independent electoral commission. The entire system is run by the political parties themselves. Hence the propensity for gerrymandering. We of course have independent electoral commissions at both the federal and State/Territory levels. A crucial element to maintain electoral integrity.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,171
15,053
You know how here in Australia you can be classified a legal pest or whatever it’s called (ie suing someone for something every 5 mins without substance) then don’t they have something similar in the US ?
Vexatious litigant I believe the term is
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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He is that, but he's also a legal bully - suing much smaller companies just to put them out of business if they pissed him off. Also notorious in New York construction services for just not paying contractors, suppliers and small businesses for services rendered. "Take me to court" he'd say. Of course they usually couldn't afford to.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,347
19,921
You know how here in Australia you can be classified a legal pest or whatever it’s called (ie suing someone for something every 5 mins without substance) then don’t they have something similar in the US ?
Mud-guts Palmer fits that description.
 

Batchelor Party

Tiger Matchwinner
Mar 25, 2011
778
1,073
USA
Well this leads me into another discussion point. Where does this all lead us if Trump doesn’t run?

If the movement is that ingrained, perhaps it’s grown it’s own legs and is breeding it’s own candidates now.

People often colloquially call Trump a fascist I don’t believe he is. Does he have fascist tendencies? Yes, absolutely. But I don’t believe he is competent, intelligent, coherent or disciplined enough to be an actual fascist. However, who is the heir apparent within this movement? Who is the movement creating that could could take baton? The next incarnation could have all of the elements of Trump, but with the competency, intellect, ideological coherence and discipline to actually be a fascist.
Great questions.
Ron De Santis, Governor of Florida, a Trump supporter and disciple, is a candidate. If Trump can't run, Don Jr may try and follow in Dad's footsteps.
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,171
15,053
Great questions.
Ron De Santis, Governor of Florida, a Trump supporter and disciple, is a candidate. If Trump can't run, Don Jr may try and follow in Dad's footsteps.

That would be hilarious, make it happen Batch!

De Santis could win the nom even if Trump runs. Trump hates De Santis and always comments on his weight when he sees him on Fox
 

Batchelor Party

Tiger Matchwinner
Mar 25, 2011
778
1,073
USA
That would be hilarious, make it happen Batch!

De Santis could win the nom even if Trump runs. Trump hates De Santis and always comments on his weight when he sees him on Fox
LOL not a citizen yet but I will use my remarkable political influence to make it happen just for our amusement. Relocating to Mexico later this year to at least get 6 months of every year away from this nonsense.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,171
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LOL not a citizen yet but I will use my remarkable political influence to make it happen just for our amusement. Relocating to Mexico later this year to at least get 6 months of every year away from this nonsense.

That's awesome - half your luck mate! Vamos los tigres

It's telling that Mexico is a saner place to be compared with the US these days