Who are we supporting to win the flag now we are out? | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Who are we supporting to win the flag now we are out?

Now we are out who do we support now to win the flag

  • Geelong

    Votes: 4 2.3%
  • Melbourne

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Sydney

    Votes: 66 37.5%
  • Collingwood

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • Fremantle

    Votes: 27 15.3%
  • Brisbane

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Bulldogs

    Votes: 5 2.8%
  • The team playing Geelong

    Votes: 68 38.6%

  • Total voters
    176
There's a bit of art vs science about this. Unless you manage to put two identical teams on the park I'm not sure there is anyway to measure coaching than by opinion and observation.

I think your measures of flags and which team wins against another team are fundamentally flawed. Coaching is about the impact you have on how good your team is, not if they win or lose. You can be a great coach and lose or a poor coach and win.
Yes true. So where does the taking a team from second to one flag V taking a team from 15th to 3 flags come in? Is the latter a lesser impact on how good the team is? You're talking a lot but not making any sense.
 
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It's only because your coach is a complete whining *smile* and your captain whinges to the umpires for free kicks all game. Dangerfield is a self promoting wanker and Stewart got away with murder when he took Prestia out of the game earlier this year; then we all had to endure everyone from Geelong, including the coach, telling us what a fantastic bloke poor old Tom is and how sorry they were for him. Whilst there was little remorse shown for what happened to Prestia and we all knew they were secretly chuffed that Stewart deliberately took him out as it won them the game. Oh and Hawkins is a cheat who gets away with illegal shoves and pushes and destroyed Soldo's knee. And Jeremy Cameron is a dirty prick.

Otherwise Geelong is okay.

This.

Never had a particular hatred of Geelong as a club. Not like Collingwood. But it is how unlikeable a fair number of their players, and their current coach, are. I was quite happy when Geelong massacred Port and won that flag. But the way the leaders at Geelong currently act, looking for frees, playing for frees, wiping out opponents etc, just makes them my least favourite current team.

DS
 
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Love you TBR, but the idea that Scott is a great match day coach struggles when you look at his finals/GF record. The H&A record doesn't look as good when you consistently make top four but then only make 1 GF since 2010, and lose it.

If he was as great a match day coach as you suggest he'd have a much better finals record than he does.

Of course if the Cats win this year that's a good corrective. If he cant win it this year then he's been an underachieving coach.

The simpler explanation is that the 7-8 gimme wins per season at KP have inflated his win/loss record considerably.
 
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This. They don't count.
I prefer when interstate teams win. Doesn't seem real then.
Humans are a funny species like this.

Reminds me of Scotland. If Rangers are playing in a European tournament final, everyone in Scotland apart from the Rangers fans themselves are barracking (not just barracking - barracking with all their might) for the opposition. And the same if it were Celtic.

Wouldn’t matter if they are playing a Russian, German or even an English club. Any sense of Scottish solidarity is non existent. :)
 
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Scott inherited one of the greatest teams in history. Five years later his team added prime Patrick Dangerfield. A few years later he got prime Jeremy Cameron and evergreen Isaac Smith. Stephen Wells has found him Sam De Koning, Max Holmes, Brandon Parfitt. Eddie Betts brought him Tyson Stengle. And like Ant says, GOOMBAH Stadium is a massive advantage.

The 2020 Sound The Alarm doco showed Dimma calm and all over everything in the box. Scott was barracking and seemed bereft of ideas. He's clearly a very good coach, but Dimma is clearly the best coach in the game.

(Just as a side note, with Clarko coming into Norf begging for a priority pick, let's remember he started his career at Hawthorn with a PP that delivered him either Franklin or Roughead depending how you look at it. You could argue that without that pick he is a zero premiership coach, despite being clearly a great coach.)

Can we not play the man, though? TBR is entitled to his opinion, which although 'clearly' wrong in this case, is as usual based on his experience observing the game up close at the top level, and argued dispassionately. Attack the post, not the poster.

ABG.
 
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It's all hypothetical but if we were able to send the exact same 22 out for both sides and play I'd have Scott over Hardwick without question. (I should have said match day coach, Hardwick's strength is in other areas).

People like to use the same two things to knock Scott's record, but you never get gifted an AFL premiership, regardless of what list you have. To win one at any time is a great achievement and shouldn't be diminished because it happened in unusual circumstances.

Secondly the home ground thing. The bloke has the best home and away record of all time in terms of winning percentage by coaches with over 100 games in charge. They don't play every game at home. We are actually witnessing one of the great moments in the history of the game and few people acknowledge it because they don't like the bloke.
Delusional
 
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Yes true. So where does the taking a team from second to one flag V taking a team from 15th to 3 flags come in? Is the latter a lesser impact on how good the team is? You're talking a lot but not making any sense.

You're not listening. I am talking about the time between the ball being bounced and the final siren going.

The vast majority of the journey you are talking about comes outside that. For a start someone has to assemble you a list capable of winning the flag, then someone else has to get them fit and healthy enough to last the journey. Then you have to hope like hell they don't get injured.

If he was as great a match day coach as you suggest he'd have a much better finals record than he does.

A coach can only take a team so far though Antman. Geelong have been stuck in the position of being good enough to be top 4 and not good enough to be top 2.

Look at Craig McRae, I don't think anyone would argue that he has been an excellent coach this year but I'd expect Collingwood to loss two finals and maybe win one. If they go out in straight sets does that mean he isn't an excellent coach? To me it's about the impact you have on your team, the best coach doesn't always win just like the best player doesn't because it takes a team.

The 2020 Sound The Alarm doco showed Dimma calm and all over everything in the box. Scott was barracking and seemed bereft of ideas. He's clearly a very good coach, but Dimma is clearly the best coach in the game.

I wouldn't be taking anything from a documentary. The previous year made it seem like all Hardwick does in the box is say tell them to raise the fight every two minutes. :ROFLMAO:

Delusional

You've got me there, brilliant position and well argued.

I actually feel pretty stupid to have ever thought the opposite. I apologise and unreservedly withdraw. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
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You're not listening. I am talking about the time between the ball being bounced and the final siren going.

The vast majority of the journey you are talking about comes outside that. For a start someone has to assemble you a list capable of winning the flag, then someone else has to get them fit and healthy enough to last the journey. Then you have to hope like hell they don't get injured.



A coach can only take a team so far though Antman. Geelong have been stuck in the position of being good enough to be top 4 and not good enough to be top 2.

Look at Craig McRae, I don't think anyone would argue that he has been an excellent coach this year but I'd expect Collingwood to loss two finals and maybe win one. If they go out in straight sets does that mean he isn't an excellent coach? To me it's about the impact you have on your team, the best coach doesn't always win just like the best player doesn't because it takes a team.



I wouldn't be taking anything from a documentary. The previous year made it seem like all Hardwick does in the box is say tell them to raise the fight every two minutes. :ROFLMAO:
I'm listening, but it is very confusing. So to take your argument to its logical conclusion, coaches are irrelevant. You could stick Humphrey B Bear in the chair.

And documentaries tell us nothing? Why make a doco? Why watch one? I understand they aren't gospel and can be creatively edited, I'm not an idiot, but documentaries do provide insight. It seems you're just dismissing any evidence that counters your argument.

Evidence, not opinion, against your Scott is the superior coach theory:

The doco that shows Scott to be pretty underwhelming in the box on match day. 'Kick this we win' (?!) There were some other doozies.

Dimma has owned Scott on the biggest match days there are. Finals wins in the book. And come from behind wins at that!

Another piece of evidence, but I fully appreciate its only my interpretation of it, Until recently Scott acted like a clown in the box on match days, openly whinging about umpiring decisions like I do! Again IYO that might be great coaching, but the fact is, not opinion, is that he carries on in the box. He's pulled his head in on that lately, although he did revert and bang the window when they beat us. Taking out Prestia good match day coaching? I think you speculated it wasn't planned, and we'll never know of course, but I disagree. I don't think he directly instructed TS to go the elbow cheap shot, nothing like that, but he told his players to physically target him when they had the chance and that was the result.
 
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Here's what I think about Hardwick. Mick Malthouse is a three time premiership coach but he isn't a great match day coach. What Malthouse was exceptional at was working out a way to play that would be successful, educate his players on how to do it and then create a relationship with his players so they would fanatically execute that method without deviation.

On match day his work is essentially done. His plan either works or it doesn't and essentially his coaching when it doesn't is to switch personnel through the same roles and to attempt to draw a greater focus and application out of his players to execute the plan.

To me Hardwick is a very similar coach. He has a unique method that is brilliantly devised and has a relationship with his side where they fanatically execute his method. Again when the chips are down he will tweak personnel within the method and attempt to generate more effort. The wins you talk about to me are a result of the method being executed emphatically until it simply breaks down the opposition.

Both those men are brilliant coaches but to me they are most brilliant for the 165 other hours in the week and less brilliant for the three hours of game time.

Coaches like Chris Scott or Kevin Sheedy operate with a different methodology. They have a fundamental method but are not fanatical about it and put emphasis on manipulating the game during the game via variation in playing style. They attempt to take the opposition strengths away and attempt to progress their chances with a variety of tactics and moves during the game. Scott does that exceptionally well in my eyes and hence I rate him highly in the time from bounce to final siren.
I reckon you sell Hardwick well short, and sound like the LeppaCella fans who minimised any credit to Hardwick they could.
I've sat and watched Stewart be close to BOG at half time twice in finals. I have then seen Hardwick make adjustments, and Stewart have little impact after that, and watched Scott have no response. I have seen Hardwick do similar to Hodge in 2019, and to Coleman in a very important game a few weeks ago.
I have seen Hardwick shift Balta from defense to attack at half time, and Balta play a strong part in us winning the GF.
We regularly make successful shifts in how we move the ball, or defend, or set up in attack, and this down to Hardwick.

You can call Scott the best H&A coach in the league, but he has been constantly found wanting when it is all or nothing in finals, when opposition coaches are at their best and not leaving any tricks on the table, and he has not been able to respond to in game challenges when it has mattered most.
 
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Swans. Even though I dislike Franklin I have a soft spot for what P.Mc has endured and the story it would be for him and his family.

No way Cats
No way Melb
No way BL

Hard to say this but because my like of McCrae & Leppa ok to the Pies but they overtake our story of 13th- premiers.

Fremantle to achieve their first I don’t mind.
 
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You're not listening. I am talking about the time between the ball being bounced and the final siren going.

The vast majority of the journey you are talking about comes outside that. For a start someone has to assemble you a list capable of winning the flag, then someone else has to get them fit and healthy enough to last the journey. Then you have to hope like hell they don't get injured.



A coach can only take a team so far though Antman. Geelong have been stuck in the position of being good enough to be top 4 and not good enough to be top 2.

Look at Craig McRae, I don't think anyone would argue that he has been an excellent coach this year but I'd expect Collingwood to loss two finals and maybe win one. If they go out in straight sets does that mean he isn't an excellent coach? To me it's about the impact you have on your team, the best coach doesn't always win just like the best player doesn't because it takes a team.



I wouldn't be taking anything from a documentary. The previous year made it seem like all Hardwick does in the box is say tell them to raise the fight every two minutes. :ROFLMAO:



You've got me there, brilliant position and well argued.

I actually feel pretty stupid to have ever thought the opposite. I apologise and unreservedly withdraw. Thanks for setting me straight.
Anyone who thinks Scott is better coach across board is Delusional.
I suspect your in that small minority group that gives no credit to Dimma club.
BTW how is Scotts record against Dimma when it matters In Finals champ?
 
I'm listening, but it is very confusing. So to take your argument to its logical conclusion, coaches are irrelevant. You could stick Humphrey B Bear in the chair.

o_O

You raised a 10 year journey to a premiership, I'm talking about the three hours in the box on game day.

And documentaries tell us nothing? Why make a doco? Why watch one? I understand they aren't gospel and can be creatively edited, I'm not an idiot, but documentaries do provide insight. It seems you're just dismissing any evidence that counters your argument.

We are talking about the little snippets the AFL release on the website here right? It's hardly Year of the Dogs. I'm not even sure the audio is always genuine and matched to the correct moments in the game.

Watch the 2019 one and see if you think it is a good reflection of what Hardwick would do in the box.

I reckon you sell Hardwick well short, and sound like the LeppaCella fans who minimised any credit to Hardwick they could.
I suspect your in that small minority group that gives no credit to Dimma club.

There's two common themes in this discussion. One is a dislike of Scott and the other is that saying someone else is a better match day coach is somehow disparaging Hardwick as a coach.

The reality is it is one small aspect of coaching. Hardwick is a great coach but he isn't a great match day coach. Buddy Franklin is a great footballer but he isn't a great overhead mark. They both have other strengths that they do much better than anyone else and that is what makes them elite in their field.

Our success has not been built out of tactical manipulation. It has been built on devising a game style that is difficult to counter and achieving total and fanatical buy in from the players to execute it relentlessly. Everyone in the competition knows exactly what we are going to do every time we play but we do it to such a high level and with such commitment that few teams can stand up to it when we are at our best. People can bang on about opinion v fact but if you watch and understand the game there is no questioning that.
 
Swans. Even though I dislike Franklin I have a soft spot for what P.Mc has endured and the story it would be for him and his family.

No way Cats
No way Melb
No way BL

Hard to say this but because my like of McCrae & Leppa ok to the Pies but they overtake our story of 13th- premiers.

Fremantle to achieve their first I don’t mind.

McCrea and Leppa coach the enemy it was a feel-good story at the start of the season but that's where it stops. I Hate the filth and hope they go out in straight sets.
 
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Most of the coach's work is done before game day. There are some moves you can pull, adjustments in tactics etc. You can develop specific plans for opposition teams and individuals. But great teams are forged over time, by great coaches.

Another thing Dimma has over Scott is the love of his players. All the best coaches are at least revered, if not adored and basically worshipped by their charges. Norm Smith. Kanga Kennedy. Yabby. Sheeds. Lethal. Clarko. DImma. Their men would eat glass for them.

There are others who succeed while perhaps not inspiring such devotion. Parkin comes to mind as someone you felt his players respected, trusted and listened to without full-on loving him. But he insisted they work and study and become better, more rounded individuals. The best coaches shape people, not just players. I can't recall hearing anyone say "Chris Scott has made me a better man."
 
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As long as it's not Cats, Pies, Dees, Lions

That leaves 2, Swans and Freo (freo I reckon will beat the dogs tonight).

GF Tip Swwans V Cats

Swans for the flag.
 
o_O

You raised a 10 year journey to a premiership, I'm talking about the three hours in the box on game day.



We are talking about the little snippets the AFL release on the website here right? It's hardly Year of the Dogs. I'm not even sure the audio is always genuine and matched to the correct moments in the game.

Watch the 2019 one and see if you think it is a good reflection of what Hardwick would do in the box.




There's two common themes in this discussion. One is a dislike of Scott and the other is that saying someone else is a better match day coach is somehow disparaging Hardwick as a coach.

The reality is it is one small aspect of coaching. Hardwick is a great coach but he isn't a great match day coach. Buddy Franklin is a great footballer but he isn't a great overhead mark. They both have other strengths that they do much better than anyone else and that is what makes them elite in their field.

Our success has not been built out of tactical manipulation. It has been built on devising a game style that is difficult to counter and achieving total and fanatical buy in from the players to execute it relentlessly. Everyone in the competition knows exactly what we are going to do every time we play but we do it to such a high level and with such commitment that few teams can stand up to it when we are at our best. People can bang on about opinion v fact but if you watch and understand the game there is no questioning that.
i don't see any difference to what every other coach in the comp does.They implement their own game style much like what Dimma has done in the past but you credit others as better match day coaches and in this instance Scott yet facts are Dimma has a 100% record in finals over Scott.
End of story.
 
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A better coach than Dimma? The man who took an absolute rabble from the depths of despair to 3 flags and a PF in a 4 year period and was a key architect in changing the culture of the entire club? As compared to a coach that inherited arguably the best list in the AFL, was gifted a premiership in his first year, and has not won one since? With arguably the biggest home ground advantage that gives a head start to every season? Nah.

I can't stand Salty as he just comes across as a whining entitled *smile*. That said I acknowledge that his ability to keep the team contending annual is a very good achievement. But a better coach than Dimma? No way.
To lose consistently in important matches the same way would suggest a coach that doesn't learn?

Chris Scott's legacy will most likely be decided this year.
 
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I admired Geelong when Thompson coached them. A great team with great players who played an attractive brand of footy.

I have nothing but disdain for the Salty coached Cats.
Same. They were great to watch and played tough but fair. Easy to admire. Their backline was phenomonal. Midfield the same. Came across as humble.

Polar opposite to the modern Geelong.
 
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Same. They were great to watch and played tough but fair. Easy to admire. Their backline was phenomonal. Midfield the same. Came across as humble.

Polar opposite to the modern Geelong.
Me too except for that mauling against us at the Dump in 2006.
 
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