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2022 Draft Thread
- Thread starter Scoop
- Start date
Appreciate the effort Bully, you've taken the period of when Jackson started, not full picture of what he has done. You give credit for the Vickery and Collins pick for allowing trades to happen but don't do the same for Geelong (i.e Motlop compo pick allowed Gary Ablett to come home, Dean Gore part of the Dangerfield trade).
I'll say this for you Bully, if I get into politics I want you as my spin doctor.
I'll say this for you Bully, if I get into politics I want you as my spin doctor.
No spin required (sounds like a Phil album), 3 premierships in 4 years is enough talking. Jackson lifted the standards immeasurably and as far as those trades are concerned, Gaz was a F&S so they got a freebie from the get go, much like Scarlett, I'm thanking Gaz for shanking a few kicks too, he was instrumental in getting us to the big dance. And nothing sets the record straighter than beating Geelong in finals, we did it and have the silverware to prove it.
More spin than SK Warne. Jackson was solid, I haven't said otherwise but your take is lopsided. You've chopped out years from Wells career, gone head to head haven't given full picture, picked and chosen what trades added value, not taken into account starting points in drafts ( huge credit for Martin & Cotchin with picks inside 5 and Wells has had none), total number of picks to prove your point. I can hear your keyboard fizzing like a Warnie flipper.
I think a lot of credit should go to Blair Hartley too,,he put us in the right direction.
The only fair way to do this is to compare apples with apples, same period, be clear on available picks in a certain range and then do the number crunching. You suggest I distort the facts when I gave the Vickery draft a C (the Bolton trade is a footnote) and gave the points to Wells with a B-. The only spin is coming from your corner, Geelong nabbed Hawkins for free, they got pick 15 for Gaz (another free hit) which was frittered away by Wells. His record with late first rounders is ordinary but there's not even the slightest bit of acknowledgement from your quarters that Geelong's success had more to do with big name trading, Players like Otens, Dangerfield, Henderson, Tuohy, Rohan, Cameron etc.
The only injustice in all this is we didn't win 4 cups, our best H&A year was the year we dropped the bundle against Collingwood, but that aside the years 2017-2020 were possibly the most dominant in Richmond's history, Hartley did his bit but none of those cups would have materialised without Jackson at the helm. Hyperbole won't do it, show me the numbers & I'll play ball but the Wells mythology needs to be exposed. Great list manager but only average when it comes to drafting youngsters, much like Greg Miller, his best days are behind him.
We also don't win the premierships without Hartleys input.
Houli,Grigg,Nank,Prestia,Caddy,lambert,,and the direction he wanted our recruiting to take .
Absolutely, with the exception of Yarran he's been pinpoint perfect, the Deledio trade exceptional business, the Vickery trade another feather in the cap. I would probably give credit for Lambert to Jackson, Fothergill-Round medalists are usually sound selections.
Hartley scouted Lambert ,Hartley was scouting State leagues ,and l think still does.
Hartley was Ports recruiter before joining Richmond ,lm betting he's on a big contract,lm quite sure every club would love him.
If they make finals this year, since 2004, it will be 18 out of 20 finals series, four flags from six grand finals, 12 preliminary finals, without a top 5 pick while losing the undisputed best player in the competition for next to nothing halfway through this era. This is the guy that put this generation together. And you want to call him a myth?
You need some more in-depth analysis I feel, I think he along with Hine were the guns of recruiting at the turn of the century, the Bartel draft was a corker and he maintained extremely high standards in that particular decade. Things have since dropped off & Geelong's dominance has mainly been the product of aggressive trading, the recruits have generally been very high calibre players & Geelong has always been a destination club. Most of the premiership core were recruited 15 years ago, there's a reason for the Dad's Army jibes, the mature agers have masked a few short comings & it's been a long time between drinks. Geelong's record has been enviable but it's still not translated to mountains of silverware. Richmond were the team of the last decade, no debate where that's concerned.
On top of guys like Ottens, Dangerfield, Rohan, Dahlhaus, Steven, Tuohy, Henderson & Cameron, they have been the beneficiary of 3 F&S steals, Hawkins could have easily have gone at pick 1 in his draft year, that alone is as valuable as a couple of top 5 picks. Scarlett another who fell into their lap. When I look at some of Wells calls the past 15 years I'm seeing a recruiter who would appear to be losing his mojo, same story with Hine, a bit too cute & trying to be a maverick when the situation demands conventional methods. If Jackson had picked Thurlow over Grundy he would have copped a serve, or Smedts over Howe/Smith, or even Parfitt over Bolton, Brown over Shuey, Djerkurra over Edwards, Lang over just about anyone. This year I reckon he's also picked the wrong type & I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that Clark is a Selwood clone, I think he's more Jarryd Lyons and those types can be sourced down the order. The other Clark, Jordan, was horribly mismanaged and says a lot about the priorities at the GFC. With Danger, Duncan, Guthrie, Cameron, Hawkins & Blicavs all nearing the end it will be interesting to see just how well Geelong bounces back, there's a few promising types but I reckon they might be in for a tumble. Watch this space.
Great debate. Thoroughly enjoying it. Bully takes it with a TKO. Scoop left himself wide open though by suggesting Wells was the undisputed greatest ever and Frank didn't deserve to be in the convo. I'm 100% convinced that on that basis, Wells status is overrated and Jackson underrated.
There's no doubt Wells is good, one of the best, Scoop is right up to that point and I don't think many would argue. But the undisputed greatest ever far above the next best? Bully has poured water on that.
It goes to a point I've been arguing for 20 years, when averaged out over a 10-15 year period, there isn't a lot of difference between best, middling and even worst. There doesn't have to be. All you have to do is be above the curve, I'd say 5% would well and truly do it. Its a numbers game. In 10-15 years from now the sample will be bigger and easier to work with, maybe even 5 years actually, the basic data will be free and there will be a $2 app that will crunch the numbers. You will be able to plug in 2 recruiters at the same age like you can with players. It will prove that point beyond doubt.
There's no doubt Wells is good, one of the best, Scoop is right up to that point and I don't think many would argue. But the undisputed greatest ever far above the next best? Bully has poured water on that.
It goes to a point I've been arguing for 20 years, when averaged out over a 10-15 year period, there isn't a lot of difference between best, middling and even worst. There doesn't have to be. All you have to do is be above the curve, I'd say 5% would well and truly do it. Its a numbers game. In 10-15 years from now the sample will be bigger and easier to work with, maybe even 5 years actually, the basic data will be free and there will be a $2 app that will crunch the numbers. You will be able to plug in 2 recruiters at the same age like you can with players. It will prove that point beyond doubt.
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Massive credit must also be given too Carl & Melb for ignoring Cotch & Dusty(Not once but twice).
You talk about trading and its impact on Geelong (and the impact Rohan, Dahlhaus, Steven had was zero) but without Lynch, Presita, Caddy, Nankervis, Houli Townsend (one flag) we don't win and that's not drafting. And the blunders Jackson made are well documented and horrible, you and I would've done better out of the first two rounds most years. Conca over Hepper, Batchelor over Parker (They played in the same team, we watched Parker for weeks and thought Batchelor was a better option, good grief), Corey Ellis over Weller, Lennon over anyone, we both wanted Grundy at the Vlastuin pick. And everything Wells has done has been without a top 5 pick you fail to acknowledge that he has been working with less coleratal, lower picks than Jackson just about every year. The Selwood pick was the highest pick over that time. As for losing the mojo, he swindled pick 20 out of us and went and got Max Holmes (projected as a LATE PICK OR ROOKIE https://central.rookieme.com/afl/player/max-holmes/) and he looks like every bit a top 5 player from that draft. And he quietly slotted two top 20 picks from that same draft into their list last year (Oliver Henry and Tanner Brahun) completely changing the trajectory of young talent coming through. Added three top 20 (Oliver Henry, Tanner Bruhn, Jhye Clark + Bowes but I won't count him) picks to the list last season AFTER WINNING a flag. Genius. Last year might have been his incredible offseason yet. You yourself were screaming blue murder that we couldn't pull the same move off and how brilliant the Cats were but now you want to call that man a myth? Strange.
Not translated to mountains of silverware? If you can book me four flags over the next 20 years sign me up.
Or Benny's Or Peggy's Or Dimmas Or many many other people. Frank played his part, no doubt, but certainly not bigger than any of the aforementioned.
Flags are won by every part of the club playing it's role. You can't pin it on one person.
Don't get me wrong, I've been grumpy with Jackson, you've covered that adequately with some of his head scratchers, I still kick myself about Parker, I still remember the Conca decision (although I wanted Darling) and CEllis simply didn't have the runs on the board to go so high. But on the flipside, Dan Rioli was an excellent pick in a compromised draft, I don't reckon one judge in Australia had him in the top 20 and that's turned out to be a rolled gold selection. His work in the rookie draft was also impressive towards the end of his tenure, the shift in focus the mark of a recruiter willing to move with the times. That is closer to genius if we are dishing out superlatives, the Bowes deal not in the same ballpark, something not quite right about the circumstances surrounding that particular trade.
But if we are to highlight his misses with our own triumphs. it's only fair to be perfectly honest about our own misfires, I wanted Hibberd in the Rioli draft, that's one instance where Jackson made a fool of me. I can honestly say I have never been close to nailing a rookie draft like the 2014 crop, not even close. The best I could have done was Saad & Lambert, no Butler, Short, Castagna & Broad, I cannot take any credit for Grimes either, that's Jackson's trophy and he deserves it given he reinvigorated the rookie draft and made it a viable recruiting tool. And ponder for just one moment, say we take Morabito over Martin and Morton over Cotchin, these names were canvassed heavily if I recall, that's a sliding doors moment which changes everything.
As for the Geelong retreads, I could also add Higgins & Smith, players who were A graders but perhaps robbing the youngsters of development time. This is at the heart of my disenchantment with the top up approach, Jordan Clark walks due to a lack of gametime, these are the opportunity costs of playing 30 year olds over kids.
So the question beckons, do Geelong have the cattle to replace a dozen 30+ players over the next few years? I'm not so sure, the recent premiership comes off the back of Dangerfield (32), Duncan (31), Guthrie (30), Blicavs (31), Hawkins (34), Stewart (29), Cameron (29), Stanley (32), Smith (34) & Tuohy (33). Selwood may be covered by Clark but I have my doubts, I think the second tier mids are second rate to be honest, the spine only just getting underway, De Koning looks a keeper but that spot probably the easiest to plug when talking spinal surgery. It is possible Geelong will trade themselves out of this malaise, they have been very good at doing so, but on the surface I think the sheer weight of A graders departing might be a bridge too far.
Wells took over recruiting in 1994 as far as i can tell, so 4 premiership in 29years. Jackson took over in 2006, so so far has 3 premierships in 17 years. both great records.
quick count to me suggests Wells had 8 top 10 picks (including Clarke) in those 28 years, while Jackson has had 6 (including Gibcus), Wells also had Scarlett, Hawkins and Ablett who i think probably would have all gone top 10, and in Hawkins case pick 1 or 2.
It's all a bit blurred as well and comparing them is not as easy as what Bullus has tried to make it i.e. Until very recently Wells was List Mgr as well as recruiting so was in charge of trades and overall list management (Essentially Hartleys and Clarke's role combined) for many of those years.
Frank has only ever had recruiting as his portfolio.
Bully also stopped at 2016 but Wells has added Kelly (who he turned into what 3 x 1st round picks), Atkins, Holmes, De Koning, Clark (got pick 22), Close plus a heap of other untried kids (mainly 21' crop) since that time. Plus trading for Cameron, Touhy, Stanley, Smith, Stengle and others.
Because of the greater reach of his position and that he's been so bloody good at it, he's had the major say in building a list that has seen them keep contending every year for 2 decades.
And Frank was an outstanding (but purely recruiting) stalwart for our club.
Apples and oranges to an extent.
Frank has only ever had recruiting as his portfolio.
Bully also stopped at 2016 but Wells has added Kelly (who he turned into what 3 x 1st round picks), Atkins, Holmes, De Koning, Clark (got pick 22), Close plus a heap of other untried kids (mainly 21' crop) since that time. Plus trading for Cameron, Touhy, Stanley, Smith, Stengle and others.
Because of the greater reach of his position and that he's been so bloody good at it, he's had the major say in building a list that has seen them keep contending every year for 2 decades.
And Frank was an outstanding (but purely recruiting) stalwart for our club.
Apples and oranges to an extent.
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