America, will they ever learn? (Gun Control Debate)

[bullus_hit]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Having worked with a number of Americans, I can tell you that most don't want stricter gun controls. Guns are so ingrained in the culture that there's no turning back, any new laws created will just provide the police with an added excuse to lock up minority groups. With close to 300 million firearms registered and thousands more unregistered, do people really believe a token piece of legislation will make the country any safer? The guns won't suddenly disappear, the psychos will still be able to get their mits on the merchandise, and the urban cowboy mentality won't suddenly fade to oblivion.

In saying all that, I'm no fan of firearms in the hands of civillians, and I salute John Howard for eradicating all semi-automatic weapons from Australia. As far as America is concerned, there's no turning back now, much like their irrational fear of universal healthcare, they still harbour a nonsensical attachment to guns. This was summed up to a tee when some bozo from the gun lobby called the recent victims civillian pussies for not carrying guns into the cinema.

I might also add that even many gunshot victims don't won't the laws changed, I have a friend who has been shot at and has the scar to prove it, his only regret is that he didn't have one of his six guns on him at the time of the shooting.

 

[RfC77]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Never! Actually realising that their mindless gun laws are to blame will mean their arms industry and economy will plunge into crisis with thousands of jobs and billions of dollars lost.

Constructive alternatives are not attractive enough.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I don't think the Liberatian's would fancy my advocacy on expansive foreign policy, and the abolishment of appeasement. I am a big fan of Austrian economics, and of people making decisions for themselves.

But you don't disagree with my reading of your attitude towards gun control.

 

[TigerForce]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

generally speaking, middle american society is very unsular. they don't know a hell of a lot that goes on beyond their own backyard, hence their very narrow minded/sheltered/old fashioned view of the world.

Very true. They live in their own world too much. A cuz in Upstate NY and another in NJ proves it.....

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

But you don't disagree with my reading of your attitude towards gun control.

My attitude is that the people should decide whether they want gun control, not the political class.

 

[Sintiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Why does civilian matter?

November 5, 2009: Gunman Malik Nadal Hasan, a Major in the U.S. Army, killed 12 soldiers and one civilian, and wounded at least 30 on the base at Ft. Hood. Initial reports indicate Hassan was upset at being deployed to Iraq.

You don't honestly think that civilians in the States will give up their guns do you, gun control laws or not?

The point of showing other examples was to demonstrate your cherry picking. I was invalidating your argument, not putting forth a hypothesis myself.

Your last paragraph demonstrates you do not value liberty. It is always the smart people that think they know better than others, and are prepared to subvert democracy to achieve their goals.

Not really going to bother with replying in much detail except to say that the Malik Nadal Hasan example is cherry picking and under your hypothesis invalid.

I don't think Americans will give up their guns and I never said they would, but I think they should. Cut it and paste it any way you like, American civilians have legal access to far more guns than any other country on earth and a massive gun related crime issue. If they want to continue shooting each other then that's their decision but that doesn't stop us from having the right to draw our own conclusions about what we want and don't want for our own country.

My last paragraph demonstrates nothing of the sort. It probably demonstrates that I don't value your definition of liberty, which is a totally different thing.

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Not really going to bother with replying in much detail except to say that the Malik Nadal Hasan example is cherry picking and under your hypothesis invalid.

I don't think Americans will give up their guns and I never said they would, but I think they should. Cut it and paste it any way you like, American civilians have legal access to far more guns than any other country on earth and a massive gun related crime issue. If they want to continue shooting each other then that's their decision but that doesn't stop us from having the right to draw our own conclusions about what we want and don't want for our own country.

My last paragraph demonstrates nothing of the sort. It probably demonstrates that I don't value your definition of liberty, which is a totally different thing.

Ha, I was invalidating your argument again. To validate yours, you need to demonstrate how disproportionate atrocities from military weapons are compared to civilian. At the moment you have claimed civilian is more important, but not given anything to back that up.

True, you have the right to make the call about how domestic policy is shaped in this country, not their country. Liberty is freedom to choose. Perhaps I overstepped the mark. If a Yank was trying to tell you how you should change our domestic policy, I’d care to wager that would tick off a few people, yourself included.

 

[Rosy]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

In saying all that, I'm no fan of firearms in the hands of civillians, and I salute John Howard for eradicating all semi-automatic weapons from Australia.

I don't think it's that simple. He got ours which would have been extremely unlikely to have been any danger to society, no issues there, but I bet he didn't get too many from the underworld and criminal element. The buy-back scheme would only have worked for honest, law abiding people.

I'm really happy we do have strict gun controls here. I've had guns aimed at me twice in my life and it's a pretty scary experience. So glad we don't share the good old U S of A's laws.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I don't think it's that simple. He got ours which would have been extremely unlikely to have been any danger to society, no issues there, but I bet he didn't get too many from the underworld and criminal element. The buy-back scheme would only have worked for honest, law abiding people.

I'm really happy we do have strict gun controls here. I've had guns aimed at me twice in my life and it's a pretty scary experience. So glad we don't share the good old U S of A's laws.

Actually I think it is exactly that simple. Many of the guns handed in would not have been strictly legal so it isn't fair to suggest that only honest people gave up their guns. It may be that crims didn't hand in their guns, but it does mean that there are less firearms available to the general population. That is what it was meant to do, and that is what it did.

 

[Sintiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Ha, I was invalidating your argument again. To validate yours, you need to demonstrate how disproportionate atrocities from military weapons are compared to civilian. At the moment you have claimed civilian is more important, but not given anything to back that up.

True, you have the right to make the call about how domestic policy is shaped in this country, not their country. Liberty is freedom to choose. Perhaps I overstepped the mark. If a Yank was trying to tell you how you should change our domestic policy, I’d care to wager that would tick off a few people, yourself included.

I could go and find statistics but can't be bothered really. To me it's a pretty fair assumption that the vast majority of military weapons would not be accessable to non military and that the vast majority of gun related violence in the US is non military related but I am not going to spend time looking that up.

Re your last point, I would suspect that there are not too many US citizens on this forum so we are not telling them anything, simply having an opinion. It does concern me however, in the same way things I really don't like happen in other countries as well. I think it's a tragedy what is happening in their streets, but there is little or nothing I can do about it.

 

[bullus_hit]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I don't think it's that simple. He got ours which would have been extremely unlikely to have been any danger to society, no issues there, but I bet he didn't get too many from the underworld and criminal element. The buy-back scheme would only have worked for honest, law abiding people.

Where there's a will there's a way, organised criminals can import anything and everything if it suits there motives. What John Howard did was to eliminate the likelihood of a Port Arthur style massacre, Martin Bryant was a mentally ill recluse who would struggle to get his hands on a firearm in the current climate.

 

[evo]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I am a big fan of Austrian economics, and of people making decisions for themselves.

Yeah me too. I gotta say though, the subject of gun control is where I like to distance myself from the garden variety American libertarian. Australian attitudes to guns is a lot saner than the Americans.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Yeah me too. I gotta say though, the subject of gun control is where I like to distance myself from the garden variety American libertarian. Australian attitudes to guns is a lot saner than the Americans.

Indeed. Having lived in both countries, I know which policy I prefer. The mentality regarding firearms and the prevalence of them is stark, especially in certain parts of U.S. society.

 

[craig]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

had a chuckle when some Texan dude said somthing like i cant believe no one pulled a gun and took him out !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh the old Wild West is still engrained in the American psyche

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

My attitude is that the people should decide whether they want gun control, not the political class.

By the political class you mean the democratically elected government - which at the time happened to be John Howard and the Coalition when those control laws were introduced.

What other laws do you think people have the right to break?

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

By the political class you mean the democratically elected government - which at the time happened to be John Howard and the Coalition when those control laws were introduced.

What other laws do you think people have the right to break?

Yeah, another example is the carbon dioxide tax.

Non sequitur at the end there antman.

 

[mld]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Yeah me too. I gotta say though, the subject of gun control is where I like to distance myself from the garden variety American libertarian. Australian attitudes to guns is a lot saner than the Americans.

I'm pretty similar, tbh. Not to say the prohibition comparison doesn't strike a chord, but I've yet to come across evidence of underground semi-automatic bars.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Non sequitur at the end there antman.

The Carbon tax is a good example, but it's only been around for less than a month.

I'm happy to stop sniping you for now though, let the other kids have their fun.

 

[SfB_AkA._DeLiCiOuS]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

BBQ......Made in the USA.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Would the pro-gunners buy a house next door to this guy?

Maryland man found with dozens of weapons, says he's the Joker