Has Hardwick had the worst start to a coaching career? | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Has Hardwick had the worst start to a coaching career?

scooty said:
Ability helps but without the belif and application and desise it has no benifit
Works the same way when you swap the terms around.

There is no point to winning games when it is with players that don't have the ability to take the club to a premiership. What we are now doing is playing guys with the tools to make it, instead of going for these so called winning culture wins. Cattle is what wins premierships. Otherwise we might as well forget recruitment and just draft players that played in junior premierships. Save a lot of time and money hey?
 
you may not win a flag with the boys you have but ul never win a flag with the boys u do want unless u breed succsess
 
Our aim is not success, and if the players are aware of that they can learn what they need to learn in the meantime. When we are in a position to be successful, then we will change our expectations. The challenge is making a successful transition from this in the minds of the players. I'm unsure as to how we plan to do this, but I imagine it will involve careful planning, consulations, clear communication and most important of all, leadership. It is a big problem we have at the club, but I imagine it will mostly come down to Trent Cotchin, at least initially. Only after a few years of sustained success can we hope to instil a winning culture at the club. The time we have left to use the golden years of the club as inspiration and proof of our success is quickly diminishing, if not already past us (which I suspect it has). This is a monumental task for the RFC.
 
unfortunately losing the first 6 rounds will only be the tip of the iceburg. if its not one of the worst starts already then it definately will be by years end. if we dont win a game by round 15 can you imagine the media and public interest that will start to build as we head towards being the only team in the last 60years or so to lose every game in a season.

people saying results dont matter this year underestimate how humiliating it will be to all involved if this occurs.
 
scooty said:
Ability helps but without the belif and application and desise it has no benifit

you need to speak to some of the players then.

I've been pleasantly surprised how upbeat they are remaining for the most part.

Most common thread is the feeling that they are "back to school". Seems they know this year is more about learning to play footy better, so the focus is strongly on this rather than the wins/losses. There also appears to be accountability to this too. A number have mentioned the issue of the skills they are supposed to be learning, and it is the application of these that is being focused upon in reviews.
 
I get what your saying and i understand that its all about education but they need incentive and as a young person you need to have an aim to strive for

like when you go to school you have all the intellectual ability in the world and you can be anything and then you get mates who are people who bludge u slowly but surely become infected by this culture
 
its interesting watching melbourne storm - who technically have nothing to play for - play so well

we need to get that mindset in as early as possible to maximise the young kids potential i believe - i know way to early to expect that currently - but we need to get them competitive as soon as possible before the weight of expectation and public perception gets too much to the point where they might never recover

i know hard at moment because we have what situation we have, but it is as important as anything in this development stage
 
scooty said:
I get what your saying and i understand that its all about education but they need incentive and as a young person you need to have an aim to strive for

like when you go to school you have all the intellectual ability in the world and you can be anything and then you get mates who are people who bludge u slowly but surely become infected by this culture

actually your example is a good one, because it proves my point


When you go to school, you can have all the intellectual ability in the world, but you have no knowledge. If you were put into a court room (for example), you may have all the intellectual capability to hold your own, but without the proper indepth knowledge of case law, precedent, and court operations, you would be torn to shreds.

You go to uni for a number of years to learn a lot of this stuff. It takes time, and is annoying, but you put up with it because you know with every step, you are one step closer to acheiving your goal.

Our kids are in school right now, and their job is to learn and become better footballers. From what I have heard, I believe they know this, and it is this improvement that is motivating them, rather than ra-ra three quarter time speeches which belong in 1973.
 
We all hope the kids we drafted last year will become stars. The development team's job is to, at the very minimum, turn them into a good core of reliable players. The kids that show ability to become elite are hopefully developed to their fullest potential.

So forget about the 1st and 2nd year players for now. I am confident that the coaches we have in place now will do a good job with them.

Hardwicks biggest job is to try and turn players like Polo, Graham, Tambling, King, White, McMahon, Hislop, Collins, Connors, Edwards, Jackson, McGuane, Moore, Polak, Thomson and White into at least handy players with reliable skills. These are our future core.

It's scary reading through those names, I can't see many making it, but you never know. Dunn, Bate, Jamar, Bartram and Moloney have all lifted for the Demons.
 
Changing culture ain’t easy.

There is a nexus between the individual and a winning culture. At Richmond Footy Club, this nexus was broken in the 1980s.

Kevin Sheedy, Royce Hart, Francis Bourke, Kevin Bartlett, *smile* Clay, Barry Richardson and John Northey were always winners. They broke in the senior team together, won premierships almost instantly and kept winning them. They established a winning culture and maintained it for years. Older players from less successful clubs like Robbie McGhie, Wayne Walsh, Paul Sproule, Barry Rowlings, Mick Malthouse came to Richmond and thrived under the winners’ culture. Young players like David Cloke, Kevin Morris, Bryan Wood, Geoff Raines, Robert Wiley, Mark Lee, Dale Weightman and Jim Jess also thrived in that culture.

By the early 1980s, the winning culture was in the hands of Cloke, Raines, Weightman, Wood, Wiley and Lee. Almost to a man, they left the club together, leaving Weightman, Lee and Jess to pass the culture on to the next generation. The chain was broken.

In the early to mid 1970s, we had the most successful Under 19 program and this translated into an assembly line of future stars. By the mid 1980s, we still had a very successful Under 19 program and this translated into not much. Jeff Hogg, the Pickerings, the Bowers, Alan MacKellar and others came out of this program straight into a team that was losing every week and struggled to reach anywhere near their potential because the winning culture was lost.

So how do we get it back? I can think of a few examples where it has already happened.

North Melbourne had been perennial losers until they convinced Barassi to join them and they embarked on a campaign to import leaders to their club, Barry Davis, Rantall, Doug Wade, Barry Cable and Malcolm Blight. They just went out and bought leaders, a luxury which is not really available now, although free agency may help in a year or two.

Essendon did it by appointing Sheedy. Essendon had a group of young leaders like Watson, Simon Madden and Van Der Haar. He found the Danihers and made them winners, just like he and his young mates at Richmond had been. Again, the secret was the identification and encouragement of the right leaders.

Brisbane turned it around when Leigh Matthews came along and encouraged his hard-nosed leadership group of Voss, the Scott brothers, Leppitsch, Lappin, Akermanis etc. Again, the change came from the leaders, not necessarily the most talented players, the leaders.

Roos did it at Sydney. Ordinary players like Ben Matthews, Jared Crouch, Stuart Maxfield, Brett Kirk, Leo Barry etc etc took on the task of changing their culture. They were leaders.

Geelong are the most recent team to do it, stripping back their squad to dot around 2001 and slowly finding and encouraging strong leaders.

Of these examples, the ones that approximate our current situation are the North Melbourne one from the early 70s and the Brisbane one. In the other cases, the teams were vaguely competitive anyway and had reasonable winning percentages before their cultural revolution. It was an easier task.

There is a very strong argument for Richmond to start again with a clean slate and trade or attract a completely new leadership group from other clubs. Do we really expect 20-24 year-olds like Deledio, Cotchin, Jackson and Foley, all infants in the experience stakes, most of whom have yet to play in 40 wins over their careers to go nose-to-nose against the likes of Ablett, Mooney, Bartel and Enright, Chapman and Johnson.?

Joel Selwood, despite playing only three full seasons, has already played in more winning teams than Brett Deledio. See the problem?

Appointing a coach from winning cultures is a good start. Hardwick has at least experienced this process of change at Hawthorn and he knows that they key element is finding and encouraging leaders. Hodge, Sam Mitchell and Croad hadn’t played in too many winning teams before Clarkson and co came along, so there is hope.

We need to find leaders who are capable of winning games of football through inspiration, through individual effort and through example.
 
mb64 said:
No coach has ever had to take over a list as bad as ours.

Course they have. Its ridiculous statements like this that underline why its been so hard for our coaches in the past to have a proper rebuild. People have memories of guppies and can't see beyond next week. Remember when Ron B took over at Sydney? The bad news bears? Remember Hougton crying when St K were getting flogged week after week? Rhode at Foots, Baily at Melb? Come on MB, this the medicine we should have taken 10, and 5 years ago.
 
wayne said:
We all hope the kids we drafted last year will become stars. The development team's job is to, at the very minimum, turn them into a good core of reliable players. The kids that show ability to become elite are hopefully developed to their fullest potential.

So forget about the 1st and 2nd year players for now. I am confident that the coaches we have in place now will do a good job with them.

Hardwicks biggest job is to try and turn players like Polo, Graham, Tambling, King, White, McMahon, Hislop, Collins, Connors, Edwards, Jackson, McGuane, Moore, Polak, Thomson and White into at least handy players with reliable skills. These are our future core.

It's scary reading through those names, I can't see many making it, but you never know. Dunn, Bate, Jamar, Bartram and Moloney have all lifted for the Demons.

On the Coburg board Tigerbob has been describing the development work that is going on with these players. It truly sounds like they are putting a lot into them and the players are being given every chance to achieve their potential.
 
scooty said:
I get what your saying and i understand that its all about education but they need incentive and as a young person you need to have an aim to strive for

like when you go to school you have all the intellectual ability in the world and you can be anything and then you get mates who are people who bludge u slowly but surely become infected by this culture
Their aim is to be better footballers. They will all have personal milestones to work towards, not just team milestones.
 
TOT70 said:
There is a very strong argument for Richmond to start again with a clean slate and trade or attract a completely new leadership group from other clubs. Do we really expect 20-24 year-olds like Deledio, Cotchin, Jackson and Foley, all infants in the experience stakes, most of whom have yet to play in 40 wins over their careers to go nose-to-nose against the likes of Ablett, Mooney, Bartel and Enright, Chapman and Johnson.?

Joel Selwood, despite playing only three full seasons, has already played in more winning teams than Brett Deledio. See the problem?

I agree with you up to this point TOT. Your logic falls down here. In answer to your question on the expectation of Deledio, Cotch, Jackson and Foley, for me its a resounding yes.

As for the Selwood v BD winning record, I don't see the logic at all. This is an argument you could drive a truck through. BD stands up in a bum side, not always but he's young and only human. As were Hodge, Reiwoldt and Voss in bum sides as youngsters. Would Selwood stand up in a bum side? We'll never know.

Personally, I reckon the best leaders develop with the team as it develops, and the very best come out of extreme adversity. Voss is the best example. IMO anyone who expects more from BD or TC at the stages they are at and the situation they are playing in has expectations that are too high.
 
Thats the point there should not be individual aims should only be one one only premiship and if anyone wants to win a brownlow or a coleman over a flag needs to go
 
scooty said:
Thats the point there should not be individual aims should only be one one only premiship and if anyone wants to win a brownlow or a coleman over a flag needs to go

Individual goals are not just awards like that

An individual goal is something as simple as trying to improve your accuracy at goal by 10%, or to make sure that when you kick out you are getting to your man cleaning the vast majority of the time. Quite a common one you do hear is some players wanting to get a certain number of 1%ers each week (i.e. the team focused things like tackles, goal assists, and so on).

Some goals while being for the individual, actually benefit the team more
 
scooty said:
Hes point was ian if u tell a kid hes a loser hel become one and if u tell a kid hes a winner he may not get there but he will try

he said u need to recruit players from a winning culture even at under 18s take the premiship player over the talented kid from the wodden spooners

a game of footy is not won on ability but on who has the biggest brain

So if you tell a kid he is a loser in his first 2 AFL games then that is his persona for life - this has got to be taking the mickey. This sort of suggests all 17/18 years olds are powder puffs waiting to be manipulated by whoever gets to them first. With that said I can see how an entrenched culture can have a significant influence on one so young.

On the biggest brain comment - that would mean we need to start recruiting Sperm Whales.
 
Im not saying u have to verbaly say there losers but if u consistantly produce useless footy no matter how gud ur young boys are it grinds them down and they grow the same mentality
 
What are you trying to say scooty? You're talking gibberish. The best I can make out, your point seems to be once on the bottom, always on the bottom?
 
Thats not my point my point is you need to breed succsess early to keep your young players hungry and motivated