Jack Ross

[Brettstigers]

Its actually surprising we are doing as well as we are

Getting real games into "the next generation" is gold, it can't be underestimated and this is the second year in a row we have been forced to rely on a number of reserves. There is no substitute for a young player for success in the 1s and for the coaches the reverse is also true. It either shows both player and coaches the gap that still has to be bridged or it informs for end of year decision making if the road to success in front of a player is just too long.

 

[Raoul Juke]

Getting real games into "the next generation" is gold, it can't be underestimated and this is the second year in a row we have been forced to rely on a number of reserves. There is no substitute for a young player for success in the 1s and for the coaches the reverse is also true. It either shows both player and coaches the gap that still has to be bridged or it informs for end of year decision making if the road to success in front of a player is just too long.

100%. To be fair to Dimma, our side is as young as its been since 2012. I think that is purely situational though as opposed that a courageous decision. I just think the kids we are playing are the wrong ones. RCD is the one that confuses me the most - he got the pre-season hype-puff piece on him and now with so many players missing that fill his exact role...to be getting overlooked by Aarts, Chol, Eggs - what are we meant to make of it? Reading his bio on the RFC website - he sounds exactly like the guy thata should have come in when Prestia first went out.

If that doesn't confuse enough, doubling down on NOT moving Vloss to a more mid-role while we are undermanned in that area again shows a lack of flexibility. I get keeping the back 6 together to keep them consistent, but I am not sure that should take priority over your midfield being so badly under-manned


RileyCollier-Dawkins

Richmond’s first pick in the 2018 NAB AFL Draft will be hoping to make his debut in 2020 after a development year in the VFL. The tall midfielder played 20 VFL games, focusing on transitioning from junior to senior football and how to best utilise his physical strength. Collier-Dawkins also spent time in defence. Stood up in the VFL Grand Final where his speed from packs and ball-winning ability was on show.
Draft historyraft history:2018 NAB AFL Draft 1st round selection (Richmond) No. 20.
DOB

 

[TigerFurious]

100%. To be fair to Dimma, our side is as young as its been since 2012. I think that is purely situational though as opposed that a courageous decision. I just think the kids we are playing are the wrong ones. RCD is the one that confuses me the most - he got the pre-season hype-puff piece on him and now with so many players missing that fill his exact role...to be getting overlooked by Aarts, Chol, Eggs - what are we meant to make of it? Reading his bio on the RFC website - he sounds exactly like the guy thata should have come in when Prestia first went out.

If that doesn't confuse enough, doubling down on NOT moving Vloss to a more mid-role while we are undermanned in that area again shows a lack of flexibility. I get keeping the back 6 together to keep them consistent, but I am not sure that should take priority over your midfield being so badly under-manned


RileyCollier-Dawkins

Richmond’s first pick in the 2018 NAB AFL Draft will be hoping to make his debut in 2020 after a development year in the VFL. The tall midfielder played 20 VFL games, focusing on transitioning from junior to senior football and how to best utilise his physical strength. Collier-Dawkins also spent time in defence. Stood up in the VFL Grand Final where his speed from packs and ball-winning ability was on show.
Draft historyraft history:2018 NAB AFL Draft 1st round selection (Richmond) No. 20.
DOB

I think, like Naish, there are shortcomings in RCD’s game that the coaches are not happy with and that’s why he is not getting picked.

Hardwick is a pretty good judge of talent and will play kids early to give them a taste regardless of where they were taken in the draft. Look at how Short, Baker, Higgins, Ross, Rioli, Castagna, Bolton, Graham and Stack were all given games in their first year, often ahead of players with better form at Vfl level.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Getting real games into "the next generation" is gold, it can't be underestimated and this is the second year in a row we have been forced to rely on a number of reserves. There is no substitute for a young player for success in the 1s and for the coaches the reverse is also true. It either shows both player and coaches the gap that still has to be bridged or it informs for end of year decision making if the road to success in front of a player is just too long.

Especially this year with no lower league games.

 

[Raoul Juke]

I think, like Naish, there are shortcomings in RCD’s game that the coaches are not happy with and that’s why he is not getting picked.

Hardwick is a pretty good judge of talent and will play kids early to give them a taste regardless of where they were taken in the draft. Look at how Short, Baker, Higgins, Ross, Rioli, Castagna, Bolton, Graham and Stack were all given games in their first year, often ahead of players with better form at Vfl level.

True - none of those blokes are anything more than a role player tho. Where are the mids he drafted that turned into top level players? I'd never really noticed till now that basically in a decade at the club, he has drafted and developed very very few. Cotchin, Edwards, Prestia, Caddy - even Grigg were not drafted from us or the Dimma era. Martin was recruited in Dimma's first year - and he was going to be a stud where-ever he ended up. Lambert is the only one i can really see & he was amazing a rookie selection.

Every other "blue chip" midfield recruit we have taken has ended up being developed into a forward or back, ala Vlaustin, Conca & Ellis - or not really came on. Even Martin spends a lot of his time shared down forward. The current crop is probably the most top ended developing mids we have had under his tenure - RCD, Dow, Ross, Graham.

All others have failed. Menadue, C.Ellis

Its actually a fairly stunning realisation - how on earth did Dimma win 2 flags without ever drafting a top end midfielder in over a decade???

 

[TigerFurious]

True - none of those blokes are anything more than a role player tho. Where are the mids he drafted that turned into top level players? I'd never really noticed till now that basically in a decade at the club, he has drafted and developed very very few. Cotchin, Edwards, Prestia, Caddy - even Grigg were not drafted from us or the Dimma era. Martin was recruited in Dimma's first year - and he was going to be a stud where-ever he ended up. Lambert is the only one i can really see & he was amazing a rookie selection.

Every other "blue chip" midfield recruit we have taken has ended up being developed into a forward or back, ala Vlaustin, Conca & Ellis - or not really came on. Even Martin spends a lot of his time shared down forward. The current crop is probably the most top ended developing mids we have had under his tenure - RCD, Dow, Ross, Graham.

All others have failed. Menadue, C.Ellis

Its actually a fairly stunning realisation - how on earth did Dimma win 2 flags without ever drafting a top end midfielder in over a decade???

We haven’t had a pick inside the top 10 Since 2012 when we took Vlastuin with pick 9. It’s extremely difficult to find A-grade midfield talent or any A-grade talent for that matter outside of the first round of the draft.

Since 2015 our drafting and recruiting in general has been exceptional. I’d even say best in league when you account for ladder position and draft picks used. Seriously, one day the rest of the league will wake up and realize just how good we’ve been in that period.

Yes, we have list gaps, particularly in the 23-28 age bracket and even more in particular with midfielders. The club addressed this in part by bringing Prestia, Caddy and Nankervis (All out injured btw) And will no doubt add to this again in the coming trade and free agency period using the money freed up by Rance.

One more point. We will inevitably fall down the ladder as our star players finish up but we won’t stay there for long. The club has put together a future group of “role-players” to build a side around and will add the a-grade talent to it with through the draft, trade or free agency in time.

 

[spook]

True - none of those blokes are anything more than a role player tho. Where are the mids he drafted that turned into top level players? I'd never really noticed till now that basically in a decade at the club, he has drafted and developed very very few. Cotchin, Edwards, Prestia, Caddy - even Grigg were not drafted from us or the Dimma era. Martin was recruited in Dimma's first year - and he was going to be a stud where-ever he ended up. Lambert is the only one i can really see & he was amazing a rookie selection.

Every other "blue chip" midfield recruit we have taken has ended up being developed into a forward or back, ala Vlaustin, Conca & Ellis - or not really came on. Even Martin spends a lot of his time shared down forward. The current crop is probably the most top ended developing mids we have had under his tenure - RCD, Dow, Ross, Graham.

All others have failed. Menadue, C.Ellis

Its actually a fairly stunning realisation - how on earth did Dimma win 2 flags without ever drafting a top end midfielder in over a decade???

Dimma doesn't do the drafting.

In 2009, we got Dusty. And DTLD and Grimes. Two pretty key defensive pillars and a GOAT.
2010, we took Conca when we should have taken Lynch or Prestia. Fixed that. Brought in Houli and Grigg.
2011, deeply compromised draft with all the good mids going to GWS. Got Brando.
2012, got Vlastuin. Not bad.
2013, massive fail.
2014, addressed speed. Fail in ND, massive rookie draft win.
2015, got Rioli, Broad. Good gets but no mids.
2016, traded in Prestia and Caddy. One gun mid, one hybrid. Drafted Shai and Graham, both mids.
2017, drafted Higgo, a mid, and two extremely talented talls in Balta and CJ.
2018, RCD, Ross, Turner, English, Stack, all mids.
2019, Pickett, Dow, Martyn mids, maybe Cumberland too.

I think the answer is that with Dusty and Cotch onboard one draft into Dimma's reign, we had two generational mids, and not many teams have ever had three. We had the entire list to build almost from scratch - around Jack, Rance, Chimp and Dusty. With Edwards, Prestia and Lambert (and the kid Graham/the story Pickett) we had a premiership midfield. The last four drafts has seen us prioritise the midfield, but Cotch was pick 2 and Dusty 3 (and Dion 9) for a reason.

Shai and Stack are top-10 talents and we thought Ross was too after a few games last year. Dow is getting rave reviews from the coaches. We need to see RCD - this kid could be the game-changer, the one kid on our list with the size and power to physically dominate opponents in the next generation of this team. He's very much a baby still, but I think it's time we gave him a taste.

 

[spook]

We haven’t had a pick inside the top 10 Since 2012 when we took Vlastuin with pick 9. It’s extremely difficult to find A-grade midfield talent or any A-grade talent for that matter outside of the first round of the draft.

Since 2015 our drafting and recruiting in general has been exceptional. I’d even say best in league when you account for ladder position and draft picks used. Seriously, one day the rest of the league will wake up and realize just how good we’ve been in that period.

Yes, we have list gaps, particularly in the 23-28 age bracket and even more in particular with midfielders. The club addressed this in part by bringing Prestia, Caddy and Nankervis (All out injured btw) And will no doubt add to this again in the coming trade and free agency period using the money freed up by Rance.

One more point. We will inevitably fall down the ladder as our star players finish up but we won’t stay there for long. The club has put together a future group of “role-players” to build a side around and will add the a-grade talent to it with through the draft, trade or free agency in time.

Well put. Agree 100%.

 

[Raoul Juke]

We haven’t had a pick inside the top 10 Since 2012 when we took Vlastuin with pick 9. It’s extremely difficult to find A-grade midfield talent or any A-grade talent for that matter outside of the first round of the draft.

Since 2015 our drafting and recruiting in general has been exceptional. I’d even say best in league when you account for ladder position and draft picks used. Seriously, one day the rest of the league will wake up and realize just how good we’ve been in that period.

Yes, we have list gaps, particularly in the 23-28 age bracket and even more in particular with midfielders. The club addressed this in part by bringing Prestia, Caddy and Nankervis (All out injured btw) And will no doubt add to this again in the coming trade and free agency period using the money freed up by Rance.

One more point. We will inevitably fall down the ladder as our star players finish up but we won’t stay there for long. The club has put together a future group of “role-players” to build a side around and will add the a-grade talent to it with through the draft, trade or free agency in time.

I do agree with most of that. the first 5 years was littered with some indifferent drafts where some top midfield prospects were over-looked for the likes of Ellis, Lennon & Conca etc. Since writing this i have been going over the last decade of drafts and its there actually seems like there could be a fair drop off in midfield talent across the board outside a top 3 pick

2009 - 2014 - saw players like Cunnington, Fyfe, Duncan, Gaff, Polec, Heppell, Prestia, Parker, Adams, D.Smith, Yeo, Merrett, M.Crouch, Neale, Mitchell, Macrea, Wines, Viney, Hunter, Bont, Cripps ( we took Ben Lennon the pick before )

2015 - 2020 - Heeney, McLean, Oliver, T.Kelly,

Perhaps its just a matter of not allowing the 2015+ crop time to develop yet - but over a pretty decent glance, their is a fair drop off for mids outside the top 3

The drafts where we missed out on quality mids where clearly history shows a V. good mid was there to be taken within 5 or 10 picks of our selection

2009 - B.Griffiths / Fyfe, M.Duncan
2010 - Conca / Heppell,Prestia
2013 - Lennon / P.Cripps + M.Crouch, Z.Merrett
2014 - C.Ellis / L.Weller*, I.Heeney, J.Steele, T.McLean


If just one of those drafts went different and we selected any 1 of the immediate alternatives on hand - our midfield would be much more balanced, particulary in age.

To get back to the original point though, i think all this just re-enforces that they need to get games in ASAP for Ross, PCD, Dow. For whatever reason we have not put much time into drafting mids in the past decade & when we have, they have not blossomed into useful players.Our drafts and development has been focused on everything but midfielders & its starting to show now the cream has gotten older and more war-torn. Start getting games into the kids we drafted with the purpose to be mids, espeically now that fate has lead to positions opening up

 

[Raoul Juke]

Dimma doesn't do the drafting.

In 2009, we got Dusty. And DTLD and Grimes. Two pretty key defensive pillars and a GOAT.
2010, we took Conca when we should have taken Lynch or Prestia. Fixed that. Brought in Houli and Grigg.
2011, deeply compromised draft with all the good mids going to GWS. Got Brando.
2012, got Vlastuin. Not bad.
2013, massive fail.
2014, addressed speed. Fail in ND, massive rookie draft win.
2015, got Rioli, Broad. Good gets but no mids.
2016, traded in Prestia and Caddy. One gun mid, one hybrid. Drafted Shai and Graham, both mids.
2017, drafted Higgo, a mid, and two extremely talented talls in Balta and CJ.
2018, RCD, Ross, Turner, English, Stack, all mids.
2019, Pickett, Dow, Martyn mids, maybe Cumberland too.

I think the answer is that with Dusty and Cotch onboard one draft into Dimma's reign, we had two generational mids, and not many teams have ever had three. We had the entire list to build almost from scratch - around Jack, Rance, Chimp and Dusty. With Edwards, Prestia and Lambert (and the kid Graham/the story Pickett) we had a premiership midfield. The last four drafts has seen us prioritise the midfield, but Cotch was pick 2 and Dusty 3 (and Dion 9) for a reason.

Shai and Stack are top-10 talents and we thought Ross was too after a few games last year. Dow is getting rave reviews from the coaches. We need to see RCD - this kid could be the game-changer, the one kid on our list with the size and power to physically dominate opponents in the next generation of this team. He's very much a baby still, but I think it's time we gave him a taste.

True, but as i put in my other post. The below years we just got it really wrong. If we were targeting something specfic - we missed. With Ellis & Conca we were most likely aiming for a mid - but either missed or couldn't get them developed. Drafting on need is literally the underlining story of all the "worst draft picks of all time" stories. The greatest being Michael Jordan over Sam Bowie, because they took Clyde Drexler the year before. You can dress up the reason however you like - its still a lost opportunity.

2009 - B.Griffiths / Fyfe, M.Duncan
2010 - Conca / Heppell,Prestia
2013 - Lennon / P.Cripps + M.Crouch, Z.Merrett
2014 - C.Ellis / L.Weller*, I.Heeney, J.Steele, T.McLean

The main point i made was we have not invested in mids for almost a decade and thats a weird strategy for an AFL club. The fact it was successful is shocking to me. Not often you see a dynasty be made from a midfield that was together nearly a decade before winning their first final. Our extended success has been a very unusual build & ride.

Of course, i'll take it

 

[spook]

True, but as i put in my other post. The below years we just got it really wrong. If we were targeting something specfic - we missed. With Ellis & Conca we were most likely aiming for a mid - but either missed or couldn't get them developed. Drafting on need is literally the underlining story of all the "worst draft picks of all time" stories. The greatest being Michael Jordan over Sam Bowie, because they took Clyde Drexler the year before. You can dress up the reason however you like - its still a lost opportunity.

2009 - B.Griffiths / Fyfe, M.Duncan
2010 - Conca / Heppell,Prestia
2013 - Lennon / P.Cripps + M.Crouch, Z.Merrett
2014 - C.Ellis / L.Weller*, I.Heeney, J.Steele, T.McLean

The main point i made was we have not invested in mids for almost a decade and thats a weird strategy for an AFL club. The fact it was successful is shocking to me. Not often you see a dynasty be made from a midfield that was together nearly a decade before winning their first final. Our extended success has been a very unusual build & ride.

Of course, i'll take it

We made some blues, no doubt. That's why Matt Clarke is now in charge.

 

[jb03]

Dimma doesn't do the drafting.

In 2009, we got Dusty. And DTLD and Grimes. Two pretty key defensive pillars and a GOAT.
2010, we took Conca when we should have taken Lynch or Prestia. Fixed that. Brought in Houli and Grigg.
2011, deeply compromised draft with all the good mids going to GWS. Got Brando.
2012, got Vlastuin. Not bad.
2013, massive fail.
2014, addressed speed. Fail in ND, massive rookie draft win.
2015, got Rioli, Broad. Good gets but no mids.
2016, traded in Prestia and Caddy. One gun mid, one hybrid. Drafted Shai and Graham, both mids.
2017, drafted Higgo, a mid, and two extremely talented talls in Balta and CJ.
2018, RCD, Ross, Turner, English, Stack, all mids.
2019, Pickett, Dow, Martyn mids, maybe Cumberland too.

I think the answer is that with Dusty and Cotch onboard one draft into Dimma's reign, we had two generational mids, and not many teams have ever had three. We had the entire list to build almost from scratch - around Jack, Rance, Chimp and Dusty. With Edwards, Prestia and Lambert (and the kid Graham/the story Pickett) we had a premiership midfield. The last four drafts has seen us prioritise the midfield, but Cotch was pick 2 and Dusty 3 (and Dion 9) for a reason.

Shai and Stack are top-10 talents and we thought Ross was too after a few games last year. Dow is getting rave reviews from the coaches. We need to see RCD - this kid could be the game-changer, the one kid on our list with the size and power to physically dominate opponents in the next generation of this team. He's very much a baby still, but I think it's time we gave him a taste.

What happened in 2013?

2018 is shaping as a concern even at this early stage unless RCD comes on. Ross is over rated on PRE, Stack may never replicate his first few games and Turner and English never ever get mentioned as any sort of prospect.

If we had taken Cripps instead of Lennon we would be going for a 5 peat.

 

[TigerFurious]

Back on topic. Ross is going to be fine. The club rate him so highly that they forced him to play in a position he has no experience in or is even suited to just to get him a game at AFL level.

 

[spook]

What happened in 2013?

2018 is shaping as a concern even at this early stage unless RCD comes on. Ross is over rated on PRE, Stack may never replicate his first few games and Turner and English never ever get mentioned as any sort of prospect.

If we had taken Cripps instead of Lennon we would be going for a 5 peat.

You half answered your own question re 2013. Lennon over Cripps (Clarke wanted Cripps, I believe), Hampson for a second-rounder that ended up used by the Swans on George Hewett, Nathan Gordon with pick 50 (Byrne-Jones went at 52, Fantasia 55, Sicily 56). Lloyd at 66 was decent, but we traded him for what we paid (and Amon went at 68).

Calling Ross a top-10 talent is probably a stretch, especially in the 2018 draft class, but I'm confident he'll be a B+ player or better based on his first six games.

Stack is an A-grade talent, all about the mind with him. Turner is mentioned plenty, racked up the pill last year, but he's a lot like Naish - very outside. English will probably be delisted.

I still have high hopes for RCD, anyone at the VFL grand final would.

 

[tigerlove]

True - none of those blokes are anything more than a role player tho. Where are the mids he drafted that turned into top level players? I'd never really noticed till now that basically in a decade at the club, he has drafted and developed very very few. Cotchin, Edwards, Prestia, Caddy - even Grigg were not drafted from us or the Dimma era. Martin was recruited in Dimma's first year - and he was going to be a stud where-ever he ended up. Lambert is the only one i can really see & he was amazing a rookie selection.

Every other "blue chip" midfield recruit we have taken has ended up being developed into a forward or back, ala Vlaustin, Conca & Ellis - or not really came on. Even Martin spends a lot of his time shared down forward. The current crop is probably the most top ended developing mids we have had under his tenure - RCD, Dow, Ross, Graham.

All others have failed. Menadue, C.Ellis

Its actually a fairly stunning realisation - how on earth did Dimma win 2 flags without ever drafting a top end midfielder in over a decade???

In fairness, I think other than the plastic clubs or outright top draft picks, this is the case for many teams, key midfielders are often imported rather than grown from scratch. It just shows that there's no guarantees even with relatively high picks.

 

[DavidSSS]

Ross deserves a go although the mention of syndesmosis above makes me think it will be a while before he is right again. He needs time in the middle too.

At the moment I reckon it's time to try RCD. With Prestia and Cothin out he should have been given a go.

DS

 

[zippadeee]

Ross deserves a go although the mention of syndesmosis above makes me think it will be a while before he is right again. He needs time in the middle too.

At the moment I reckon it's time to try RCD. With Prestia and Cothin out he should have been given a go.

DS

Easy money Wedezdey night.
Bompmytelly 3 votes.
Footscary comfortably by 4 goals.

Even with our best midfield they slap us.

 

[Raoul Juke]

In fairness, I think other than the plastic clubs or outright top draft picks, this is the case for many teams, key midfielders are often imported rather than grown from scratch. It just shows that there's no guarantees even with relatively high picks.

That is pretty wrong, most of the success of the past decade was built on teams where their midfield was built via the draft - using higher end picks. Your comment would be 100& with rucks - a very high number of flags are won with either traded rucks or 10+ year veteran rucks.

Even our own midfield is mainly built on our own high end draft picks outside Prestia, with the unusual thing being those picks were with us a decade before winning even a single final. Prestia would be the only high end trade-chipped mid to win a flag this century IMO

The thing that makes us unique is we won multiple grand finals with with a midfield we mostly drafted a decade ago &/or traded for. The only team that perhaps did this would be the 2018 Eagles, With Yeo being a lot lesser expense trade

Essendon in 99-2000, - Misit, Blumfield, J.Johnson, Heffernan
Lions 3-peat - Voss, Black, Scott bros, Power
Port in 2004 -Carr, Burger Bros, James
Swans 2005 & 2012 - Goodes, Kirk, L.Ablett, J.Bolton, Jack, Kennedy*
Eagles 2006 - Cousins, Judd, Kerr, Fletcher
Cats 2007, 2009-2011, - Bartlet, Corey, Ablett, Enright, J.Kelly, Ling
Hawks - 2008 -2013 Mitchell, Hodge, Sewell, Lewis, I.Smith, Shiels, Langford
Collingwood 2010 - Pendles, Thomas, Swan, Beams
Dogs 2016, Bont, Dahlhaus, Libba, McLean, Hunter, Boyd
Eagles 2018 - Shuey, Gaff, Sheed, Hurn, Yeo*, Masten


90% of them (in red) won their 1st flags => 6 years of being drafted - with a high chance that pick was a 1st or 2nd rounder - or the luxury of a F/S selection.
Our midfield on the other hand shows that yes, you require a high amount of 1st/2nd rounder midfielder - but we are unique based on their age for first flag.

Cotchin - first rounder, Year 10
Edwards - 2nd rounder, Year 11
Martin - 1st rounder, Year 8
Prestia - 1st Rounder TRADED, Year 8
Lambert - Rookie draft, Year 3
Grigg - 2nd Rounder, TRADED, Year 11

Basically, our success in that way is very unique and goes to show the value of risk taking when going for gold, despite our midfield getting older, we continued to build around them with the belief they would come good as a unit. The flip side tho is, our team is kinda young, but our midfield is bloody old. We are fast approaching a cliff & the COVID situation almost certainly brings us to that edge closer as i can almost certainly say that - Salary caps are gonna drop & free agency will get much much harder. This is again something the NBA is fast approaching and retaining players will be easier in a sense as, most player are happy to stay for the same money.

This is all not a "*smile* on us when we are down" thing - its just analysis that leads me to a conclusion that we should really be trying to get games into those prospective midfielder Ross, RCD etc - as midfielders, not back/fwd flanks. The team we have running out over the past month will quite literally be the team we have in 2 years IMO - As you can see above, no team has won a flag without high end draft pick mids working out, generally within 5 or 6 years of being drafted. For that to happen, we need to actually draft some mids & get games into the few, untried ones we already have ASAP.

 

[sportshow]

Easy money Wedezdey night.
Bompmytelly 3 votes.
Footscary comfortably by 4 goals.

Even with our best midfield they slap us.

At Marvel, generally outside of 2018 i think most of our recent games have been at Marvel which for some reason makes a difference ....

 

[daniel30]

Hasn't been the same since that injury.To lean for me now and we're or helping him out in the halfback.In saying that skills and kicking been a let down.