Woke politics discussion

[K3]

Im sure that story of the evolution of the term "woke" suits some agendas.
Or you could read the article linked above about how the "right" have misappropriated the word as a way of minimising social injustices, and claiming victim status.

Left... Right...

IMO it is various interest groups of all political persuasions trying to get their piece of the pie.

Forget boxing ppl into tight little groups. People are making a mess of this. People are out to make money from this all. People are looking to get some power or fame from what is going on.

 

[AngryAnt]

Its not about putting groups into a queue. It is more about meeting the need to improve inclusion of 'the many' above the trendy 'few'.

All marginalised groups should be represented, but it shouldn't be based on a current trend, it should be based on how many people will be positively impacted by the representation created. This isn't happening atm.

Utilitarianism? That's one approach.

I'd still argue that organisations can and should deal with people who have needs without prioritising one group above another.

 

[Baloo]

It certainly feels like there is a huge agenda being pushed. The big question, for me anyway, is why?

If the companies wanted to promote inclusion, they should be starting with members of our society who have suffered the most and longest... Indigenous, and those with physical and mental issues. If we could normalise people in wheelchairs, the deaf, and those with Autism etc, I think this would go a lot further in providing benefit to what is a large number of our society's members.

I suspect that there might a higher percentage of LBGQITetc working in the film/TV industry than in the population in general. Same industry is probably under represented in the areas you mention.

 

[Brodders17]

Left... Right...

IMO it is various interest groups of all political persuasions trying to get their piece of the pie.

Forget boxing ppl into tight little groups. People are making a mess of this. People are out to make money from this all. People are looking to get some power or fame from what is going on.

You say this, while putting forward an urban dictionary definition that someone has clearly made up to disparage the word "woke" to perpetuate its misappropriation, which also acts to minimise the social justice background the work arose from.

 

[Brodders17]

I feel when I watch Apple TV/Disney some of the shows have 'woke' content because they literally force in trans and gay characters way above normal population percentages, and it doesn't even really fit what is going on in the plot. I know this is not what 'woke' means according to the dictionary (at the moment) but it feels to me like they have a top-down mandate on hitting certain targets and that clearly shows sometimes in the writing. My objection is more an eye roll of the forced representation in an unnatural way than any objection to seeing these types of characters in a show. A more realistic show would probably be someone getting persecuted for being different or trying to hide and keep it secret / getting ostracised from a group they were in etc. vs everyone being super accepting of it and supportive of it and then how that gets dealt with vs most plots having two girls or boys kissing each other.

what do you feel you watch a show that has straight people way above population percentages? or able bodied people? or nice people?

and objecting because a tv show isnt necessarily realistic seems like a bit of a waste of time to me.

 

[K3]

You say this, while putting forward an urban dictionary definition that someone has clearly made up to disparage the word "woke" to perpetuate its misappropriation, which also acts to minimise the social justice background the work arose from.

No. I used the Urban Dictionary definition to show where the term Woke is currently at in everyday usage. How many ppl under 25 do you think use the term as the Oxford Dictionary may have it?

 

[RoarEmotion]

what do you feel you watch a show that has straight people way above population percentages? or able bodied people? or nice people?

and objecting because a tv show isnt necessarily realistic seems like a bit of a waste of time to me.

Well made point and taken - I do find some older TV shows quite awkward and very white.

I probably didn't word the realistic bit that well - more that it feels like a forced representation.

 

[Brodders17]

No. I used the Urban Dictionary definition to show where the term Woke is currently at in everyday usage. How many ppl under 25 do you think use the term as the Oxford Dictionary may have it?

The urban dictionary is like Wiki- some good, some bad, but not a reputable source.
You are right, some u25s do use the term as you described- without the agenda pushing that comes with it from the UD- but that doesnt mean it is right or should be supported. plenty of "u25s" think *smile* and *smile* and *smile* and *smile* etc are terms for daily use, but i doubt you would use them with your mother.
It is in the interests of those wanting to keep the disadvantaged disadvantaged to have terms like "woke" turned into insults.

 

[glantone]

I think the other area that hasn't been mentioned enough, is that the most damage being caused, is being caused to children.

It really feels like they are being used by those older, to get power, prestige and the outcomes they want. Like so many past pushes, it is the very, very, very few who are looking to benefit. In this realm, this benefit will be at the expense of many children.

Agree. Drag reading time is an interesting example of transwomen using children as live endorsement props for their own gain. Not only is this incredibly narcissistic the more outrageously presented drag queens dehumanise women by reducing women to mere caricatures. What other marginalised sector of the population can you so openly take the *smile* out of and get applauded for it other than women?

 

[glantone]

This thread highlights that the word "woke" is really only useful to quickly identify a RWNJ. Can't think of anyone else that uses it. Though Dermie did recently call the crack down on bumps and tackles as a result of woke supporters wanting to sterilize our game. But that's more evidence that those who use woke don't know what the word means.

I know plenty of people who use the word 'woke' as a pejorative all of whom vote either ALP, Greens or Independent. Ages from mid 20's to late 60's. From Brunswick to outer suburbs. None of them are 'woke' but a few of them work in a highly 'woke' environment - education, business and local ALP politics - and for their job security keep their gobs firmly shut. I don't know any conservatives but wish I did just to get an alternate view of the world....for fun debates.
To believe that RWNJs have a monopoly on the perjorative use of the word 'woke' is an overly simplistic nuanced free view of the world and in that sense almost mirroring the simplistic view some conservatives have of the left.

If you're interested here’s an interesting New York Times article by John McWhorter on the origins and evolution of the word Woke. McWhorter is a PhD in linguistics specializing in black English.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/opinion/woke-politically-correct.html

 

[Tigaman]

There here there & everywhere . Greater Dandenong Council wants to ban deep fry potatoe chip fryers & it would then not be viable to serve chips made in air fryers according to Doveton Football & Netball Club. ( lived in Doveton back in the 1960's Power Road. Lovely people down to earth dinki di Aussies then ).

 

[HeadandShin]

Agree. Drag reading time is an interesting example of transwomen using children as live endorsement props for their own gain. Not only is this incredibly narcissistic the more outrageously presented drag queens dehumanise women by reducing women to mere caricatures. What other marginalised sector of the population can you so openly take the *smile* out of and get applauded for it other than women?

As a woman, this has always astounded me. For quite some time, you would have been criticised for dressing up as a caricature of a Mexican/Jewish person/ Native American, but drag queens get a free pass. Ditto for dressing as Catholic nuns to ridicule them - try dressing as a Rabbi or an Imam and see how that’s received (not just by those religions but generally).

 

[glantone]

As a woman, this has always astounded me. For quite some time, you would have been criticised for dressing up as a caricature of a Mexican/Jewish person/ Native American, but drag queens get a free pass. Ditto for dressing as Catholic nuns to ridicule them - try dressing as a Rabbi or an Imam and see how that’s received (not just by those religions but generally).

Hey HeadandShin nice post and great to hear from you. Like God the woke work in mysterious ways.

Perhaps they would argue that Mexicans, Jews and Native Americans are historically marginalised and discriminated against and so are not fair game but of course so are women in every culture all over the world. The woke consider themselves to be progressive but how is celebrating patriarchal stereotyping of women progressive in any way? In fact the transgender movement could not exist without patriarchal gender stereotyping. So hats off to the patriarchy.

And to pretend this stereotyping of women is just fun in the classroom, well maybe on the stage it is but how is reinforcing sexist misogynistic gender stereotypes good for children? Kids would think 'black face' is fun too!

Simone de Beauvoir the French philosopher famously said ‘One is not born, but rather becomes a woman.’ And men with *smile* & balls presenting as women have shamelessly appropriated this feminist quote to validate their transgenderism.

On the religious front Christianity has been eviscerated under critical thinking and rightly so. Try applying the same critical thinking principles to Islam despite its ongoing subjugation of women and buckle up for all the woke hate coming your way.

This is the sort of intellectual dishonesty the woke have got themselves bogged in. And they wonder why the word woke has become a pejorative. Go figure.
Hope you keep posting HeadandShin.

 

[Sintiger]

Hey HeadandShin nice post and great to hear from you. Like God the woke work in mysterious ways.

Perhaps they would argue that Mexicans, Jews and Native Americans are historically marginalised and discriminated against and so are not fair game but of course so are women in every culture all over the world. The woke consider themselves to be progressive but how is celebrating patriarchal stereotyping of women progressive in any way? In fact the transgender movement could not exist without patriarchal gender stereotyping. So hats off to the patriarchy.

And to pretend this stereotyping of women is just fun in the classroom, well maybe on the stage it is but how is reinforcing sexist misogynistic gender stereotypes good for children? Kids would think 'black face' is fun too!

Simone de Beauvoir the French philosopher famously said ‘One is not born, but rather becomes a woman.’ And men with *smile* & balls presenting as women have shamelessly appropriated this feminist quote to validate their transgenderism.

On the religious front Christianity has been eviscerated under critical thinking and rightly so. Try applying the same critical thinking principles to Islam despite its ongoing subjugation of women and buckle up for all the woke hate coming your way.

This is the sort of intellectual dishonesty the woke have got themselves bogged in. And they wonder why the word woke has become a pejorative. Go figure.
Hope you keep posting HeadandShin.

The history of drag is of course in the theatre. It can actually be traced back to the times when men dressed as women on stage because women were banned from performing.
Maybe the acceptance of it traces back to that origin. Other forms of “dressing up” had more sinister origins. For instance although blackface was used early in Shakespeare (Othello as an example) its use in the US was to exaggerate black people and make fun of them. It is rooted in racism.
That is not to say women won’t be offended by drag, they may be, but I think the difference between the two in the way they are perceived is probably because of those origins.

 

[glantone]

The history of drag is of course in the theatre. It can actually be traced back to the times when men dressed as women on stage because women were banned from performing.
Maybe the acceptance of it traces back to that origin. Other forms of “dressing up” had more sinister origins. For instance although blackface was used early in Shakespeare (Othello as an example) its use in the US was to exaggerate black people and make fun of them. It is rooted in racism.
That is not to say women won’t be offended by drag, they may be, but I think the difference between the two in the way they are perceived is probably because of those origins.

Interesting post Sintiger. Thanks for sharing it. I remember seeing Othello in movie form when I was young and thinking ‘why is that man’s face black when he was obviously not a black man.’ It was Laurence Olivier.

For the record I don’t have any issues with drag in the arts. As an adult I’m intellectually equipped to process the persona knowing it’s founded on sexist stereotyping of women but in the context and spirit of adult entertainment it’s benign. Everyone knows they’re men. So what …. live and let live. Also don’t have a problem with light humour based on racial stereotyping for the same reason - black face crosses that line though. Children are not adults and so are unable to contextualise. They soak up what they see. Reinforcing gender stereotyping which oppresses women seems like a poor choice.

I’ve had friends and work colleagues who were transvestites. One with whom I briefly shared a room and was on a promise not to try on any of his dresses when he was at work…hahaha. They were all gay men and again so what …. live and let live. I can’t imagine a society without equal rights for women and lgbqti…. It would be like living in a muslim majority country I guess.

My issue is men presenting as women demanding ‘rights’ as men presenting as women which negatively impact, degrade or dismiss the rights of girls and women in any way. It’s almost like a macabre alternative universe to the 1950’s. Men winning ‘woman of the year’ awards, men competing against women in women’s sports, men applying for positions specifically designated for women, men presenting as women turning up in women’s refuge and rape centres, heterosexual or bisexual autogynophilic men with full male genitalia claiming to be lesbians demanding entry into lesbian bars, men trying to mute the voice of feminists etc etc etc

All of this celebrated by the woke as good and fair and inclusive. The suspension of reality here by the woke is as breath taking as the obvious misogyny of trans idealology.

 

[Baloo]

All of this celebrated by the woke as good and fair and inclusive.

This is where the negative version Woke falls over in a heap. I'm sure there are plenty of woke who will vote yes but also have issues with born males winning women's sporting events.

Woke is a collective term thrown about when someone has issues with a progressive movement, any progressive movement. In my experience, other than a few extremists, supporting some progressive movements doesn't guarantee you support all of them.

 

[K3]

This is where the negative version Woke falls over in a heap. I'm sure there are plenty of woke who will vote yes but also have issues with born males winning women's sporting events.

Woke is a collective term thrown about when someone has issues with a progressive movement, any progressive movement. In my experience, other than a few extremists, supporting some progressive movements doesn't guarantee you support all of them.

Totally disagree. On the weekend I was told that I "need to get woke" by someone who said that they definitely were!!!! (probably needed to use more exclamation marks there

You make out like 'woke' is used by those on the conservative side of thinking, and I am sure it is, but I can categorically say that I have experienced it coming from the opposite side waaaaaaay more often. Probably what I get from hanging out with my kid's Uni friends at times, but still the truth.

Anyone here been called a CIS Male/ Female lately?

 

[Sintiger]

Totally disagree. On the weekend I was told that I "need to get woke" by someone who said that they definitely were!!!! (probably needed to use more exclamation marks there

You make out like 'woke' is used by those on the conservative side of thinking, and I am sure it is, but I can categorically say that I have experienced it coming from the opposite side waaaaaaay more often. Probably what I get from hanging out with my kid's Uni friends at times, but still the truth.

Anyone here been called a CIS Male/ Female lately?

I think woke is now a bull *smile* term no matter who uses it. It has become so misused as a term that it now has no meaning at all.

If I take the actual definition and someone called me woke under that definition I would be happy to be called it.

aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

However that meaning has been lost by extreme views, at either end of the scale. It has been politically weaponised by some as an insult whereby any person with an element of social and racial justice is labelled as woke as an insult. It is now just another lazy label to use by those who can’t or won’t understand that people are individuals with individual views that are often varied and nuanced.

I don’t know who you are hanging around with but I haven’t heard the term used by the “opposite” side much at all and I mix and work with a lot of people who would be considered woke. Those working in social work, international aid, mental health as examples.

 

[K3]

I think woke is now a bull *smile* term no matter who uses it. It has become so misused as a term that it now has no meaning at all.

If I take the actual definition and someone called me woke under that definition I would be happy to be called it.

aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

However that meaning has been lost by extreme views, at either end of the scale. It has been politically weaponised by some as an insult whereby any person with an element of social and racial justice is labelled as woke as an insult. It is now just another lazy label to use by those who can’t or won’t understand that people are individuals with individual views that are often varied and nuanced.

I don’t know who you are hanging around with but I haven’t heard the term used by the “opposite” side much at all and I mix and work with a lot of people who would be considered woke. Those working in social work, international aid, mental health as examples.

Since you quoted me....

1. Agree totally. It has been politicised and weaponised. Bloody shame.

2. Agree again. I would to.

3. Think I stated as much previously, just not as well.

4. As I said... Uni students. Those who occasionally seem to relish ramming how woke they are down other's throats. Those ppl who are woke, tend to be high-quality, intelligent and aware people, and don't feel the need to let everyone know it.

 

[eZyT]

I think woke is now a bull *smile* term no matter who uses it. It has become so misused as a term that it now has no meaning at all.

yeah.

a bit like the Eureka Flag - starts as something historic, by and for the people,

gets stolen by *smile*.

as you know, I watch SkyNews on Thursdays to try keep my brain a little agile,

and I reckon the presenters say 'Woke' about 5 times/minute.

Paul Murray is the worst. I think its probably equal parts editorial agenda (explicit oversimplification/polarising edict from Murdoch); deficient vocabulary of the presenters (they simply dont have the words to adequately analyse the cherry-picked, out of context bullcrap they do on high rotation, even if they wanted to)

Its extraordinary that Sky is subject to journalism law,

when in a regulatory sense, they have more in common with brothels, abattoirs, and smelters